Labels - 'Goth', 'Alternative', etc.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by evilpoppy

Everyone just seems to listen bad Rock and Metal round here.

I blame the Sisters of Mercy.

D'ya have the New Dark Age Comps?

Around here, it's mostly all post-Mansonites who are the ones still listening to crap metal. If it helps any, it's on the wane here, at least within goth clubs.

The Dark Age comps? They're a little hard to get here w/o special ordering them, so I've only got one, and a freebie they were giving out at Drop Dead a few years ago. It'd be nice if they ever gave me any promos (the best I got was the new FTB album for a release party), but they never return my emails.

I do have the Pagan Love Songs comp, and I've been mulling over getting the Kallifornian Deathrock comp, since 2xT did the PLS one, and Rickbats had a hand in it as well. The liner notes would really be what I'm after if I get it, though.

Do you have the Pagan Love Songs comp? If you don't, I highly recommend it; it even has a Cadra Ash track, and that's another band that's impossible to get in touch with.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by evilpoppy

Ultimately the influence of EBM in the scene goes back to Killing Joke. Weird thing to say maybe, but then if you listen to early Nitzer Ebb you find that the guys from Essex were playing with electronic instruments in the same way early Killing Joke were playing about with the punk sound five years before. There is nothing wrong with this sort of experimentation. But of course present EBM sounds a long way from the minimal soundscapes of early Nitzer Ebb.

Good goth...While I have much respect for you, I must say that Killing Joke's sound leaned more toward First Wave Industrial, in styling. The reason I personally don't classify them as EBM is because they were still fairly poetic and had the influence of post-punk and punkrock as well.
Of course their later work projected more of an Industrial rock sound, but keep in mind they did attain their success a good deal. But Killing Joke make's a commentary on society; they were even melodic in their early work. The self-proclaimed, half assed 'EBM' is but an emotionless, robotic intreptation of the aesthetics of Industrial, only biting small influences of Industrial. And now we have awful music such as Arrgotech and Future Pop, which sounds like Ballroom dance music. Just without the poetic noise.
This is where my subculture comes it. Industrial is its' own form, yet it's the brother of our subculture and its' music, for we per say grew up together seeing all the evolutions of music. Yet this being associated with our culture is almost attempting to replace the flamboyancy and avant garde style that founded goth.

What seems to be lacking is the element of glam camp that the Batcave bands had in particular. Such is not a requirement of the Goth aesthetic, but it is part of it - as you say 'The flamboyance of goth has been replaced with the aggro attitude of Industrial.'

Granted and agreed. Personally I think bands solely with Electronica music elements have attempted to do so as mentioned. Before 1986, our culture and goth rock displayed proudly the influence of Glam, Punk, Post-Punk and Cabaret. Now bands with Cabaret elements are considered Dark Cabaret, and lack goth aesthetics. And bands with Post Punk elements are among the self-proclaimed 'Post Punk revival' with bands like The Libertines. All of which are singled out of our culture, and replaced with the ideas' of scholars who lack art appreciation.

And it is not just Industrial which has rejected the subversive androgyny at the heart of Goth. As someone with their feet firmly planted in Art-School Punk I find the idea of Gothic Metal an anathema, as it so frequently represents traditional gender roles and 1950's images of rebellion. Metal strikes me as a deeply macho, un-alternative and conformist musical genre.
I'm not saying that all Goth guys need to look like Rozz or Jonny, but it seems as you said that this kind of aesthetic is no longer so much part of the scene.

Goth's aesthetic isn't all about looking like Rozz Williams and Jonny Slut nor trying to get the shades of Andy or a deathawk, but that's a fun authenticity about our subculture. The aesthetic STILL is part of our scene, yet its' probably so underground that advocates of it may just be in this forum.
:-)

And here I will give the non-rivett Cybers a couple of points. Because at least they share aspects of this aesthetic, and elements of synthpop and futurepop embrace a bringing together and blurring of male and female.

Guess I'll cite this: wasn't it glam's influence that supported the androgynous quality of goth music? The Cybers are hardly relevant to such, only with robots.

Goth Androgynous=Fantasy, Glam Literature
Cybers' Androgynous=Robots, Post-Body Horror.

On a side note, I think both are equally creative.

Give my Gary Numan over the Sisters any day. It was their reinterpretation of Goth into a darker version of MTV style stadium cock-rock that helped get us in this mess in the first place, and ultimately brought metal into the scene.

Gary Numan? I must say I partially disagree with Metill being brought into our scene being the responsibility of the Sisters. I think the Cults' (most notably AssTurdBerry) responsible for that. A friend of mine, Flavius, even told me that our subculture along with gothic rock, was interpreted by MTV and the Media because of the Cults' 1987 release of Electric. While the Sisters had mainstream success, the Cults' direction changed more rapid from goth rock to Hard Rock/Metill on purpose for the sake of making money. Short and simple, they sold out.
Oh and I feel The Cure and The Sisters gave goth a positive influence, for they were associated more in our subcultures' foundation and reconigisation. I am still mad at the Sisters for how they mixed the styling of Metill and Hard Rock, but the imagery and look can still only be classified as goth. Ian Asturby shows his masculine looks perfectly if you've seen the VH1 interview (yes, VH1) with the Cult.
Then, Andrew ElderBitch randomly denies goth. While he's not entirly oblivious to the fact we gave the Sisters of Mercy attention and we're the only people that'd attend their concerts, and buy their albums. His only reliable support system. Yet he only sees us as his costumers, but feels he's too good to repay us. I think he's a douche.
Hmm...Getting back to the Hard Rock influence, the media still couldn't tell the difference. Still to this day they think that just because a band wears eyeliner and black clothes they are apparently a goth band, but Heavy Metill in styling.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[DeathChii]

Can someone explain to me how goth is all about the music? ^^ I just don't feel like it is. I mean how could there be gothic literature, gothic fashion, and gothic religions if it's all about the music? I think you could like some goth music and still be as preppy as can be? O_o

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth is not all abou the music. In a nutshell, I'll say that our culture is centered around MUCH more than such. It's just the foundation, really. I honestly think goth is a way of life, yet founded on music. People that take the music as the entire definition of our subculture are only trying to hide the fact they don't really know what goth is.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by DeathChii

gothic literature

Gothic literature was there centuries before the gothic subculture. Therefore how can it be a part of the subculture?
It can be an inspiration of the subculture, which, obviously means, inspiration for lyrics; so we circle back again to music.

gothic fashion

Fashion is a form of expression. Every subculture has a characteristic standar of dressing that identifies an individual as part of that subculture.
So, you dress gothic. What does that mean?
- That you're part of the gothic subculture and you're expressing it phisically. But then your style is a symbol of the subculture, and not the subculture itself.
Or
- That you like that style, regardless of whether you're into the gothic subculture or not.

and gothic religions

WTF?

I think you could like some goth music and still be as preppy as can be?

And that would make you much gothier than someone that dresses in black and corsets and gets off to pictures of cemeteries.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

I honestly think goth is a way of life

I'm an epicurean. My favorite band is London After Midnight.
A friend is a minimalist. His favorite band is Southern Death Cult.
Another is a stoic. His favorite band is The Cruxshadows.
Another is a full-out hedonist. His favorite band is Siouxsie and the Banshees.

If it's about the way of life, which one of us is the goth?

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Good goth...
Oh c'mon Jilly, be nice to Ann. She's not done anything wrong. In fact, she knows quite a bit of our culture. And I'm 96% she meant something different when saying Gothic Religions. You must admit, some alternative religions have connections with our aesthetics, while that still doesn't make them gothic religions.
The gothic literature thing is the ideology of our subculture with intelligent narrative and passionate settings. John Keats and Oscar Wilde are blue prints for Peter Murphy and Rozz Williams.
Hope this clarified a bit.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[DeathChii]

Thanks I was just crurious... But then what happens if you listen to everything? You're a punk/goth/prep/deathrocker/metalhead/hippie... O_o Or is it the kind of music you decided to take on to a deeper level? The one you express through your clothing, or possibly your own band?
Again just wondering, sorry if I sound stupid O_o;;

[DeathChii]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Good goth...
Oh c'mon Jilly, be nice to Ann. She's not done anything wrong. In fact, she knows quite a bit of our culture. And I'm 96% she meant something different when saying Gothic Religions. You must admit, some alternative religions have connections with our aesthetics, while that still doesn't make them gothic religions.
The gothic literature thing is the ideology of our subculture with intelligent narrative and passionate settings. John Keats and Oscar Wilde are blue prints for Peter Murphy and Rozz Williams.
Hope this clarified a bit.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Well I don't actually BELEIVE they are gothic religions, but a lot of people assosiate many pegan type religions with goth. That doesn't actually make them goth religions, but... yeah... if you know what I mean? xD

[Godslayer Jillian]

Most of the gothic fashion is camp.
Most of the songs that deal about death are tongue-in-cheek.
Most of the bands would rather have fun playing at a small club and getting drunk with the fans afterwards than playing in a stadium and winning a music award.

Goth is always about having fun (in the dark preferably) and people that assign more attributes than just music to the Gothic subculture are just overwhelming the simplicity of being a goth.
Generally (though I'm not saying you), people that attribute characteristics to the gothic subculture such as literature, poetry, and philosophy, just do it so that they can feel like writers, poets, and philosophers, by the sole reason of calling himself a goth.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I'm an epicurean. My favorite band is London After Midnight.
A friend is a minimalist. His favorite band is Southern Death Cult.
Another is a stoic. His favorite band is The Cruxshadows.
Another is a full-out hedonist. His favorite band is Siouxsie and the Banshees.

If it's about the way of life, which one of us is the goth?

Generally speaking, Willian. I'd consider our subculture as a whole a way of life; what it's about is hard for me to define. In fact, before this debate gets bigger with more people involved, I'd like to point out that Jillian is cute and timid aside from being what he is expressed on these boards.

Originally Posted by What Jillian will say next

Oh, how goth.
You're so ineloquent Vyvian I have trouble believing you've gone to the point of sucking up to me to hide the fact you're wrong.

p.s. GET ON MSN

Goth Forever

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by DeathChii

Thanks I was just crurious... But then what happens if you listen to everything? You're a punk/goth/prep/deathrocker/metalhead/hippie... O_o Or is it the kind of music you decided to take on to a deeper level?

I'd say your last question is accurate. Music influences behavior a lot. This is why Goth can be all about the music and still be an ample subculture.

[DeathChii]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I'd say your last question is accurate. Music influences behavior a lot. This is why Goth can be all about the music and still be an ample subculture.

Alright ^^ I was just confused because, I don't think any goths, or punks, or whatever only limit themselves to their own music??? O_o I mean ... maybe some of them do? I guess? Though I would find that a bit odd...

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by DeathChii

Alright ^^ I was just confused because, I don't think any goths, or punks, or whatever only limit themselves to their own music??? O_o I mean ... maybe some of them do? I guess? Though I would find that a bit odd...

Got it . You see, while we all (as goths) or in any subculture, acknowledge Bauhaus and Siouxsie as the founding fathers, yet we still have the right to adit to where our tastes take us. Goth is who we are generally with fun and comfort, our music is a different story.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by DeathChii

I don't think any goths, or punks, or whatever only limit themselves to their own music???

See, there's the problem.
You define yourself as a goth, therefore you try to assign everything you like as gothic so that in doing them, you still keep being one.
But this is wrong.
Goth is a part of us. It's not us. It is the more immediately recognizable part of us because it is generally known just by looks.
But when your musical tastes end, you are nothing but another person, just like anyone else.
There's no need, nor reason, to limit your life to what is goth and is not.
Really, the only reason you would think such a tight definition of goth would limit people that want to be goths is that you yourself are being limited by it. You just happen to want a bigger chain by giving more attributes to Goth.

[DeathChii]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

See, there's the problem.
You define yourself as a goth, therefore you try to assign everything you like as gothic so that in doing them, you still keep being one.
But this is wrong.
Goth is a part of us. It's not us. It is the more immediately recognizable part of us because it is generally known just by looks.
But when your musical tastes end, you are nothing but another person, just like anyone else.
There's no need, nor reason, to limit your life to what is goth and is not.
Really, the only reason you would think such a tight definition of goth would limit people that want to be goths is that you yourself are being limited by it. You just happen to want a bigger chain by giving more attributes to Goth.

Well I can't define myself as goth, and I don't because I listen to all kinds of music... I love gothic rock but hell I also love the beatles, korn and sublime..etc. I have a gothic fashions sense and a taste for gothic literature... which I wouldn't call gothic fashion or literature... I would just call clothes and books =P because then I'd be mislabeling things that have nothing to do with each other? but yeah, I don't know O_o I don't think I'm anything...

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Groan.
Oh Jillian, I fail to see what you've accomplished in your statment other than depressing people. There nothing wrong with self-esteem. If someone likes pointing out the Velvet Underground influenced goth, then why not? DeathChii, our tastes do not make us less goth. Liking the Beatles means you like the Beatles.

Oh, but apparently it's pointless arguing with him. Basically I can't convince him of anything.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[evilpoppy]

Originally Posted by delicti

The Dark Age comps? They're a little hard to get here w/o special ordering them, so I've only got one, and a freebie they were giving out at Drop Dead a few years ago.

I do have the Pagan Love Songs comp, and I've been mulling over getting the Kallifornian Deathrock comp ...

Do you have the Pagan Love Songs comp? If you don't, I highly recommend it; it even has a Cadra Ash track, and that's another band that's impossible to get in touch with.

I had the PLS comp on order with Strobelights for ages. Got rather narky with them about it as it was 'repressing'. The Strobelights series of comps is great for DJ'ing too. Drop me a PM on here or Deathrock.com.

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Good goth...While I have much respect for you, I must say that Killing Joke's sound leaned more toward First Wave Industrial, in styling. The reason I personally don't classify them as EBM is because they were still fairly poetic and had the influence of post-punk and punkrock as well.

I wasn't so much defining early Killing Joke as EBM, more noting the links between early EBM and the Art-Punk of the 70's. EBM these days is very distant from the minimal sounds of early Front 242 or Ebb, and you have to look outside the scene to find alternative elctronic acts still doing this sort of stuff.

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Before 1986, our culture and goth rock displayed proudly the influence of Glam, Punk, Post-Punk and Cabaret. Now bands with Cabaret elements are considered Dark Cabaret, and lack goth aesthetics. And bands with Post Punk elements are among the self-proclaimed 'Post Punk revival' with bands like The Libertines.

There are still plenty of artists doing great Post-Punk, Industrial and Art-Punk. Frustration, Romance, Dandi Wind, The Victorian Englishmen's Gentlemen's Club, to name a few that come to mind. You just have to look under a few stones to find them!

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Goth's aesthetic isn't all about looking like Rozz Williams and Jonny Slut nor trying to get the shades of Andy or a deathawk, but that's a fun authenticity about our subculture. The aesthetic STILL is part of our scene, yet its' probably so underground that advocates of it may just be in this forum.
:-)

I like this, and you are right. Look back at the early 80's bands and people wore all sorts of different things, and explored different aesthetics. The Goth fashion scene these days seems to be far more about what you can pick up ready made in an Alt.Clothing store, rather than subverting the existing.

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

I must say I partially disagree with Metill being brought into our scene being the responsibility of the Sisters. I think the Cults' (most notably AssTurdBerry) responsible for that.

Yep, that is a fair way of looking at things. In general I guess I am not keen on the whole late 80's Goth Rawk direction.

Originally Posted by DeathChii

Can someone explain to me how goth is all about the music? ^^ I just don't feel like it is. I mean how could there be gothic literature, gothic fashion, and gothic religions if it's all about the music? I think you could like some goth music and still be as preppy as can be? O_o

Goth is about the music, because that is how the term evolved I guess. Goth's were the fans of bands that were exploring the gothic aesthetic in style and content. For me those two can't be taken apart.

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

I honestly think goth is a way of life, yet founded on music. People that take the music as the entire definition of our subculture are only trying to hide the fact they don't really know what goth is.

How is Goth a way of life? Sure there are aspects of my life that my music taste relates to. I am Christian Priest and take up to two funerals a week, dress up in funny clothes and play with blood and flesh on an altar. But I don't think my lifestyle is 'goth'. I guess I do wear black all the time. And listen to a lot of Sex Gang Children.

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Most of the gothic fashion is camp.
Most of the songs that deal about death are tongue-in-cheek.
Most of the bands would rather have fun playing at a small club and getting drunk with the fans afterwards than playing in a stadium and winning a music award.

Goth is always about having fun (in the dark preferably) and people that assign more attributes than just music to the Gothic subculture are just overwhelming the simplicity of being a goth.

That is 99.99% how I see it. 'Dressing in bad clothes and listening to mediocre music' is how I describe it. I already have an alternative lifestyle in my work and vocation. In my spare time I want to have fun with music, fishnets and dressmaking scissors!

Originally Posted by DeathChii

Alright ^^ I was just confused because, I don't think any goths, or punks, or whatever only limit themselves to their own music??? O_o I mean ... maybe some of them do? I guess? Though I would find that a bit odd...

No of course not. I listen to a huge range of music. And so should you! For me I guess the whole dark art-punk-post-punk thing of the late 70's eary 80's that is Goth just happens to be my centre. I indulge in the music and the aesthetic because they come together.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth's definition cannot be determined by one person alone. I personally think that it is a way of life, that's my opinion. And, to the side of such, if you don't think your lifestyle is goth, then why define it purely as music? Sure, our cultures' foundation is music, but saying that doesn't define it alone. And, even goth musicians I'm quite sure agree.
Goth Forever

[DeathChii]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Goth's definition cannot be determined by one person alone. I personally think that it is a way of life, that's my opinion. And, to the side of such, if you don't think your lifestyle is goth, then why define it purely as music? Sure, our cultures' foundation is music, but saying that doesn't define it alone. And, even goth musicians I'm quite sure agree.
Goth Forever

Yeah... and I felt the same way... but I guess I'm wrong xD

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Guess again. You're not wrong. Jillian's just trying to trigger you to feel such. :/


Oh, but Really he's only provoking arguments.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[evilpoppy]

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Goth's definition cannot be determined by one person alone. I personally think that it is a way of life, that's my opinion. And, to the side of such, if you don't think your lifestyle is goth, then why define it purely as music? Sure, our cultures' foundation is music, but saying that doesn't define it alone. And, even goth musicians I'm quite sure agree.
Goth Forever

I just don't feel the need to add 'way of life' to what is already in its root form a fantastic music based subculture. It is okay if you want to use the language and work differently around it.

I guess my taste in the goth musical aesthetic is related to who I am as a person, but doesn't define it. I could listen to different genres and still have the same influences.

I was only talking to one of the guys from UK Decay about Dubstep the other day. A genre which seemed to resonate with what they were doing 30 odd years back.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth is not all about music. I honestly don't think there's nothing much else to say. People that say it's all about music are either musicians or have a very good connection with music.

O_o *Sigh*.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[DeathChii]

Yeah I was thinking about it more today and I still can't see how it's all about the music. Maybe what we need is two different words. One to describe people who listen to gothic rock, and ones who submerge in to the gothic subculture (so they call it). There is no way a subculture full of literature and fashion only off music, sure it could be a huge influence, but not on it's own. Why would there be dating sites specificaly for goths? there has to be more to it. What about all those people who see beauty in the dark? Maybe goth is only about the music, then the dark subculture that's been created should be given another name.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by evilpoppy

I had the PLS comp on order with Strobelights for ages. Got rather narky with them about it as it was 'repressing'. The Strobelights series of comps is great for DJ'ing too. Drop me a PM on here or Deathrock.com.

Oh Christ. If I go on deathrock.com, I'm going to get ambushed about a couple of A Red Crescent Sect tracks I promised someone a long time ago, but I still haven't unpacked yet from my last move. I'll pm you here, and redeem myself on deathrock.com before messaging you there. ;-)


I'm not even touching the lifestyle vs. not business, since that's never going anywhere. :-D