Private Armys?

CptSternn · 04-08-2006, 06:55 AM

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...1&ran=202519&t

Blackwater USA says it can supply forces for conflicts

Stepping into a potential political minefield, Blackwater USA is offering itself up as an army for hire to police the world's trouble spots.

Cofer Black, vice chairman of the Moyock, N.C.-based private military company, told an international conference in Amman, Jordan, this week that Blackwater stands ready to help keep or restore the peace anywhere it is needed.

Such a role would be a quantum leap for Blackwater and raises a host of policy questions.

Until now, the eight-year-old company has confined itself to training military and police personnel and providing security guards for government and private clients. Under Black's proposal, it would take on an overt combat role.

"We're low-cost and fast," Black was quoted as saying. "The issue is, who's going to let us play on their team?"

*snip*

So does this bother anyone? That there are now 'private armies' (readin: mercenary armies) being trained within the US? I mean, what if they are paid to say fight for a group that is not well liked by the US? Is that an issue?

Before you answer, there are a few things people should also know about BW and other groups like Caci and the various other private armies currently inside the US.

First, lets look at Columbia. Right now, the US has only a few army personell there for 'training'. However, blackwater and other 'security contractors' have thousands of personnell there fighting the civil war, for the pentagon on the pentagon payroll. However, the US policy is to stay out of Columbia and it's internal politics, and by using this 'proxy army' it doesn't need congressional or presidential approval. It's bought, paid for, and sent in with little or no oversight - much like the whole issue in the in Iran Contra scandal, now the government has setup a group that can act like the contras, be paid outright, and with no liability because thanks to corporate laws, you cant hold a corporation liable. Also since a corporation has to answer only to share holders, and if they have operations outside the US they aren't restricted by US law, these lads can go anyway, commit whatever attocities they want, and no one is accountable. Not only that, the US can send troops into anywhere, and claim 'hey, we have no troops there and we are not at war' while in reality they have hundreds of private soldiers there, on the US payroll, and still 'keep their hands clean' so to speak.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/120300/W...___from_.shtml

Before you think bad things can't happen, look at Mark Thatcher, son of Marget Thatcher, currently hiding out in Britian avoiding extrition to Equatorial Guinea for hiring a private army to overthrow the government there. Thatcher, along with a former SAS commander hired a group of 70+ private security contractors to overthrow the government there. Why? Well, EG has untapped oil resources, along with many other uuntapped resources, and the government there doesn't want to tap them as they are a simple people, who don't like western influence.

So the former prime minsters son with help of the former head of the british special forces hire these same contractors to invade, take over, and install a new government in a sovern nation, all while britan sits back and says 'hey, we had nothing to do with this and knew nothing about it'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3596948.stm

This kinda thing bother anyone else? The fact that the governments of the world, with the help of US capitalism and corporation laws have found a way to circumvent the laws surrounding war and allow governments with enough money and influence to conduct secret wars, without the knowledge or consent of the citizens?

emeraldlonewoulf · 04-12-2006, 11:35 PM

yeah, it bothers me. However, i don't see a way to control it without restricting a bunch of stuff that shouldn't be. If you apply the same laws to both individuals and corporate entities, there isn't a way to deal with it. If you ban corporations like this, you most likely also ban peoples' ability to form a militia, or band together to defend their own in almost any fashion. You go against the Constitution, not the mention the Declaration. So yeah, its' spooky that these guys exist, and it is easy to see how they will be misused, (not unwillingly) , but how do you fix it?

Icarian Decoding · 04-13-2006, 10:41 AM

It does bother me, in the sense that private militaries owned by anyone can lead to the chaos of Civil Unrest, and turn war away from attacking governments and soldiers, to attacking civillians.

With that said, I support it to a degree, in the manner that I believe anyone should be allowed to form up their own group, and give themselves a means to defend themselves. For instance, Blackwater USA offers training courses to people outside of the Blackwater foundation, and these can be incredibly useful in the event of home robbery, the collapse of the state, or if you're just plain being shot at. If Blackwater didn't exist, the type of training they could offer, would be easily removed, because it would be considered "Para-Military".

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/training/

Then you have what Emerald said, militias. As soon as you ban militias, you ban the failsafe, and practically any reason the US Government would not, for attacking it's own people. Right now, if the US Military tried to takeover the US forceably, to enforce some new government, they would meet, many, many, many disgruntled Americans, with all sorts of weapons. Including Blackwater USA, and their compadres.

Remove them, and what's left to stop the US Military? No one.

CptSternn · 04-13-2006, 05:43 PM

Blackwater IS the US military. As mentioned on their own website, a majority of their personell are ex-special forces and other military.

Icarian Decoding · 04-13-2006, 06:08 PM

Actually, to a degree you're correct, but the US Military is compremised of individuals outside of corporations, and Blackwater only preforms operations for individuals.. Yes, they do outsource their R and D, and some of their operations to Blackwater, and companies like Boeing, Lockheed, Colt, etc, but they are still independent from Blackwater. Unless I am mistaken, in which case I made a fool of myself.

CptSternn · 04-14-2006, 03:46 AM

What I was saying is Blackwater is comprised of ex-military. Everyone there, as they boast on their site, is a former military person. Therefore, they have all been trained by the US government, and know the drill.

Yes, they are 'independant contractors', but they are all former lifers from the US military who have either retired to go into the private sector or who were recrtuied by headhunters to leave the current US military, in lieu of more money and 'action'.

Either way, it doesn't bode well to encourage that kind of behaviour. Nor does it look good that the US is using them at such a rate that the security of the US is primarily based not on it's military, but on corporations and private armies (i.e. Halliburton provding logistics while Blackwater and others provide the soldiers).

If the economy takes a hit, then the security of the US will as well as they have tied their security directly to money.

Just another aspect of this discussion.

CptSternn · 04-14-2006, 03:50 AM

One more thing I thought of the other day while watching telly. The UK is now running 'Ahead as one' which is like the US 'An army of one' advertsiments. This is new in Europe. Because so many people are against the war, the UK has regressed to actually paying millions to ad companies to try and drum up new recruits.

It's a sad day for ANY country when the reason people fight and die for the country is NOT that they give two shits about what the country stands for or its people, but the reason they join is good advertising and huge piles of money.

Tis why groups in the middle east will ALWAYS win, especially in a war of attrition. Those people sign up for suscide missions because of their BELIEFS, an nothing more. No ads, no promise of cash, just because they 'feel' its the right thing to do.

Binkie · 04-14-2006, 09:59 AM

Sorry, I find it hypocritical that you support Sinn Fein's use of the IRA to kill innocent civilians but somehow shun legitimate groups like "Blackwater."

CptSternn · 04-14-2006, 02:06 PM

The day Blackwater attacks DC to oust the current government, I'll stand behind them all the way! Hell, I'll even get a Blackwater tattoo!

But until they support a cause for their beliefs versus monetary gain, I'm against their existence.

And once again, if yu want to get into military killing innocent civilians, how many has the US killed in Iraq alone so far? 25,000 is what bush quoted. Most groups are now saying close to 30,000 innocent men, women and children US soldiers have murderer to date.

Don't get me started on Vietnam. Until american loses this one, and runs away, we won't be able to count all the innocent lives that your country has taken away.

Binkie · 04-14-2006, 03:34 PM

Right, cause the IRA doesn't rob banks or anything for monetary gain. And let's compare how many innocent civilians Blackwater has murdered compared to the IRA. Of course, when I say murdered, I mean it was premeditated. Your group will lose.

Icarian Decoding · 04-14-2006, 11:25 PM

The IRA and Blackwater are two similiar but very different things [Paradox]. Let me explain.

The IRA is based on the goal of removing the British forces from Northern Ireland.

Blackwater is the same as an organized group of hitmen.

While I do not congradulate either side for killing someone, Blackwater is fighting for the ideal of money. In my eyes, fighting to remove someone from a country, is better then fighting for money, morally. While I understand that right and wrong is subject, the IRA are killing people, and bombing civilians, to prove a point. It's the line between freedom fighter and terrorist. Blackwater is just, "Hey, got money? Good. Let's go whack some people".

Binkie · 04-15-2006, 02:41 AM

Organized Hitmen? Let's go whack some people? Blackwater's primary purpose is to provide security for officials in trouble spots. They are hired in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect officials. They've been contracted for the "policing" role already down in New Orleans after Katrina rolled through. If Sternn would have posted the entire article (a rare move), everyone would get to see the quote stating that Blackwater is interested only to peacekeeping operations. You don't assassinate people in peacekeeping operations.

As for the IRA and their "pure" struggle that was never about the money, only about battling the British... Well, 3 individuals, two of them IRA explosives-experts and the other connected to Sinn Fein, were arrested and convicted in Columbia here recently for training members of FARC, a Columbian terrorist organization. It's still being investigated how much they were paid, but the estimates are thought to have been in the area of 2 - 2.6 million dollars. Not to mention they're engaged in many for-profit enterprises, such as smuggling in and selling cigarettes illegally, robbery, extortion, and money laundering. They've essentially turned into the "Irish Mafia" over there.

CptSternn · 04-15-2006, 06:13 AM

Bink -

Even after all the numbers come back, the HIGH number of people, including security forces, who were killed by the 'ra is 1,200.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/index.html

The online index maintained by the british government and a dozen non-profit groups is right there. Check it out.

Lets look at the number of death the regime you support is responsible for...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Upwards of 30,000 in 3 years the US regime has done in efforts to steal resources from a once sovern nation. This number grows daily, where as the group you continually harp on about has disarmed, and hasn't been credited with a death since the 90's.

You and the organisation you support will kill, thousands more, and at current estimates american soldiers will murder close to a hundred innocent people alone TODAY, before you even reply to this post.

And my next question is, why is it when Afghanistan allows a prviate army to setup and train people, its a 'terrorist camp', but when america lets a private army setup and train people, its 'capitalism' and 'outsourcing'?

Ican -

My point exactly.

Binkie · 04-15-2006, 02:10 PM

Heh. Wow. You keep desperately trying to compare casualties between the US Army and the IRA. Let's take a look at how that started:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binkie

Sorry, I find it hypocritical that you support Sinn Fein's use of the IRA to kill innocent civilians but somehow shun legitimate groups like "Blackwater."

To which you tried to weave in the US Military in this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

And once again, if yu want to get into military killing innocent civilians,

Mmm'no.

I tried to get you back on track but apparently something got lost in translation. Maybe you're just confused. Blackwater USA is NOT the US Military. It hires private citizens. Do you understand the difference between a member of the US Armed Services and a private citizen? I will explain if you do not. But anywho, no, no one is getting into military anything. We're talking about these two "private armies" who both contract their shit out to different groups. Blackwater USA to the US, Iraqi, and Afghan governments - the IRA to Columbian terrorists. As desperate as you are to do some acrobatic act and fit the US Military into the conversation, it doesn't belong in with anything that was being discussed. Getting back to the original comparision that you're shying away from like a son of a bitch; "You shun a legitimate group like Blackwater USA, yet you support the IRA. Who has killed more innocent civilians? Blackwater or the IRA?"

Answer that question straight up. I've been considerate enough to answer your direct "yes" and "no" questions before. Give me a straight up answer. Who has killed more civilians? The IRA or Blackwater USA?

Also, Sternn, I've got news for you; not everyone that Blackwater USA employs is ex-military. They hire NRA weapons instructors, demolitions instructors, doctors, regular ol' bodyguards, welders, translators, mechanics, etc.

BTW, small mention here, but I already spoke with your alter-ego about the Iraq Body Count project. You can review their methods here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count

They not only fail to cite the sources for their figures, but include "indirect casualties," meaning people were not shot by American or Iraqi troops. People that just got stabbed in the street by another civilian for being a slack jawed pussy who supports al-Qaeda bombings of middle schools. Deaths that the IBC thought "should have been prevented by the Occupational Forces."

And since you've tap danced around this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binkie

Organized Hitmen? Let's go whack some people? Blackwater's primary purpose is to provide security for officials in trouble spots. They are hired in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect officials. They've been contracted for the "policing" role already down in New Orleans after Katrina rolled through. If Sternn would have posted the entire article (a rare move), everyone would get to see the quote stating that Blackwater is interested only to peacekeeping operations. You don't assassinate people in peacekeeping operations.

As for the IRA and their "pure" struggle that was never about the money, only about battling the British... Well, 3 individuals, two of them IRA explosives-experts and the other connected to Sinn Fein, were arrested and convicted in Columbia here recently for training members of FARC, a Columbian terrorist organization. It's still being investigated how much they were paid, but the estimates are thought to have been in the area of 2 - 2.6 million dollars. Not to mention they're engaged in many for-profit enterprises, such as smuggling in and selling cigarettes illegally, robbery, extortion, and money laundering. They've essentially turned into the "Irish Mafia" over there.

I'll assume you have absolutely nothing to refute with your Party's ususal talking points.

Cambodian Breakfast · 04-15-2006, 02:23 PM

Blackwater USA has to answer for what they do to the American goverment. Who does the IRA answer to? The American goverment has done this for years. Look at when Russia invaded Afghanistan. We sent U.S. C.I.A. guys over there to teach them to fight and gave them weapons. So they could fight our common, at the time, enemies. What is different about it now?

CptSternn · 04-16-2006, 01:17 PM

Blackwater has killed more civilians in more countries - as mentioned, they work in Columbia as well, not to mention a dozen African nations as we just saw in Nigeria. They work on the pentagon payroll, and answer to no one.

They kill using money they get from your taxes, yet there is no oversight.

Cambodian Breakfast · 04-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Do you know what a civillian is. It is a person that dose not pose a direct threat to you or your unit. Show me that they are civillians.

Binkie · 04-16-2006, 01:33 PM

Don't worry about him, Cambodian. It was a loaded question I asked him. There are no figures kept on civilian casualties attributed to any Blackwater USA employees. He's made information up when he answered the question.

Cambodian Breakfast · 04-16-2006, 01:35 PM

That is great. I love when poeple do that.

CptSternn · 04-17-2006, 06:42 AM

Made it up? Lets look at a few articles and links...

http://www.business-humanrights.org/...s/B/Blackwater

http://zfacts.com/p/644.html

Those are great resources - collections of various news articles about PMC abuses in Iraq and other countries.

There are currently 20,000 PMC's in Iraq alone. Thats more than the complete 'coalition of the willing' - double the number of british troops there. These are not logistical employees, but lads with guns being paid by the US government to kill.

Thats right, americans whos job is to kill Iraqis for money. But no on seems to have a problem with that.

Especially congress, since some of the biggest political dontations to the biggest GOP reps in there are taking large sums of money from these groups...

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artm...iew.cgi/9/4439

Some things you also might not know...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...103566,00.html

The biggest US military base built since Vietnam, Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, was constructed and continues to be serviced by private contractors. At Tuzla in northern Bosnia, headquarters for US peacekeepers, everything that can be farmed out to private businesses has been. The bill so far runs to more than $5bn. The contracts include those to the US company ITT, which supplies the armed guards, overwhelmingly US private citizens, at US installations.

The US is still fighting in Kosovo, but with no troops, just PMC's. Like Columbia. With 20,000 people fighting in Iraq, and thousands in Kosovo, a few thousand more fighting in Afghanistan, your telling me they don't kill any civilians?

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/18967/

"Blackwater USA has sent recruiters to Chile, Peru, Argentina, Colombia and Guatemala for one specific reason alone," said an intelligence officer in Kuwait who requested anonymity. "All these countries experienced dirty wars and they have military men well-trained in dealing with internal subversives. They are well-versed in extracting confessions from prisoners."

This has been shown as in the Abu Gharib prison abuse scandal, at least 4 Blackwater employees were said to have abused prisoners. How many got in trouble? Not one.

Abuse by Outsourcing

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May25.html

In fact, the wiki lists even more abuses...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private...ary_contractor

-In 1999, an episode with DynCorp in Bosnia was particularly embarrassing for the U.S. military. A Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) lawsuit was filed against DynCorp employees stationed in Bosnia, which found: "employees and supervisors from DynCorp were engaging in perverse, illegal and inhumane behavior and were purchasing illegal weapons, women, forged passports and participating in other immoral acts."

-Employees of private military contractor CACI were involved in the Iraq Abu Ghraib prison scandal in 2003, and 2004.

-On October 27, 2005, a "trophy" video complete with post production Elvis music appearing to show private military contractors in Baghdad shooting Iraqi civilians sparked two investigations after it was posted on the Internet. (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Aegis-PSD.mov [3] [4]) The video has been linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services. The man who is seen shooting vehicles on this video in Iraq was a South African employee of Aegis Victory team named Danny Heydenreycher. He served in the British military for 6 years. After the incident the Regional Director for Victory ROC tried to fire Heydenreycher, but the team threatened to resign if he did. As of December 2005, Aegis is conducting a formal inquiry into the issue, although some concerns on its impartiality have been raised.

So it's happening, but guess what? Thanks to US law, selling white slaves, traffiking guns and drugs, and killing civilians in another country is not illegal.

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7667

It’s a difficult question to answer. As civilians, contractors are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and cannot be court-martialed. They’re not subject to Iraq law; the country lacks a functioning judiciary and the CPA has said that coalition forces and defense contractors are not subject to indigenous laws. They’re not necessarily subject to U.S. law, because their actions take place overseas and many are non-U.S. citizens.

These lads get on average $1,000 a day from the US government, are not subjected to any military code of conduct, and operate outside any legal system.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/03/30/blackwater-army/

Whats worse - they were deployed with 'shoot-to-kill' orders in New Orelans during Katrina to 'surpress' looters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...14.html?sub=AR

Still think that they are brilliant? Still think I'm 'making all this up'?

Cambodian Breakfast · 04-17-2006, 08:01 AM

Shoot to KILL. Where did you hear that? For one or sorce dosen't say in it shoot to kill. You can't even fire on an enemy right now unless the shoot at you first.

Binkie · 04-17-2006, 05:09 PM

*Yawns*

Nice bunch of articles, Sternn. Half of them either don't mention Blackwater USA, or make a small mention. Most focus on other companies, which we are not talking about. None of which back your allegations that they were invovled in Abu Gharib. None of which post statistics on deaths attributed to their employees.

So give me a simple answer on this, if in fact, you did not make up the figures (which you still have yet to even provide). How many civilians have Blackwater USA killed? Just give me a number and a link to where you got that figure from. Not a bunch of board-topiced bullshit that profiles 900 private companies... just blackwater and just the figure attributed to how many civilian deaths they have been responsible for (i.e. how many civilians their employees shot or killed)

CptSternn · 04-17-2006, 05:15 PM

Troops told 'shoot to kill' in New Orleans

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...9/s1451906.htm

Katrina: Governor Orders Troops to Shoot and Kill Looters

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/arc..._troops_will_/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/st...html?gusrc=rss

The soldiers, some back from Iraq, have orders to shoot to kill looters and gunmen.

Binkie · 04-17-2006, 05:18 PM

I'm still waiting for you to post a figure on the civilian deaths attributed to Blackwater USA employees. Don't waste my time, if you can't produce them, you made shit up.

CptSternn · 04-17-2006, 05:22 PM

Since the US government no longer 'keeps figures' on civilian deaths, and obviously coporate hitmen don't keep track and send their numbers to news agencies, we can't directly say.

But, as shown, we can say the same companies do invlove themselves in human traffiking of young women as human slave/prosititues, drug smuggling, and gun running, all while being paid by the pentagon.

We also can prove they were directly involved in Abu Garhib, and that they killed civilians, filmed it, and distributed it on their website.

So, if judging by the fact films of these people killing innocent civilians for fun are on the net, I'm guessing that its NOT some isolated incadent as you would have us believe, especially since they face no criminal penalties.

10,000 soldiers in Iraq fighting daily and your trying to tell us they DON'T kill any civilians? The brits have less than 2,000 and have a large number of civilain deaths attributed to them (check the previious mentioned sites for stats), and this group yer trying to sell us has none?

Not buying it. Just because no one tracks it, thats the beauty of their business, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They actively recruit known war criminals, as shown in the links above.

Just glad people like yourself are proud to have your name, your countries name, and reputation tagged to men who kill for money.