Canada & US Oppose Palestinian Statehood

[Saya]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...bEGZ0.facebook

Canada is rejecting a Palestinian effort to win recognition at the United Nations as an independent state.

The move is not surprising given that the Harper government has forcefully highlighted its loyalty to Israel and the United States. Both oppose the Palestinian initiative.

The Palestinian Authority, which controls most of the West Bank, launched a campaign last month that will see it pursue a vote on statehood at the United Nations General Assembly in September — an effort borne out of its frustration over a peace process that is stalled.

The top Palestinian diplomat in Canada says her official delegation will still push hard for the support of Ottawa.

“On the conflict, we would like to see the Canadian government taking a neutral stand, supporting the creation of the state of Palestine, supporting the recognition of Palestine as a full member state in the UN in September,” Linda Sobeh Ali, head of the Palestinian delegation, told The Canadian Press.

Sobeh Ali also said her delegation is pushing Canada to recognize Israel's pre-1967 borders — something Prime Minister Stephen Harper forcefully opposed, and managed to block from being part of the final communique of G8 leaders at their recent May summit in France.

“Our government's long-standing position has not changed. The only solution to this conflict is one negotiated between and agreed to by the two parties,” said Chris Day, the spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird.

“One of the states must be a Jewish state and recognized as such, while the Palestinian state is to be a nonmilitarized one.”

The Palestinians are trying to win the requisite two-thirds support in the assembly — 128 votes among the 192 member countries — before the matter is considered by the Security Council. They have reportedly won the support of more than 100 countries.

Harper's stand at the G8 pitted him against U.S. President Barack Obama, who only a week earlier said in a major speech that the pre-1967 border should be a starting point for the resumption of stalled peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians.

But Washington last week reiterated its opposition to the Palestinian push for UN recognition of its statehood.

A State Department spokeswoman said the Palestinian move would not be helpful to getting the parties back to the bargaining table.

Canada echoes that view.

“We will monitor developments at the UN and respond appropriately,” said Day. “As G8 leaders declared at Deauville, unilateral action is ultimately unhelpful.”

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is to host a meeting Monday of the UN Secretary General, the European Union and Russian foreign ministers — the so-called “quartet” of Middle East peacemakers.

The Harper government has been widely criticized for siding slavishly with Israel and turning a blind eye to the suffering of Palestinian people.

Rami Khouri, a leading Mideast analyst based in Lebanon, said in a recent interview that Canada has been traditionally viewed in the region as a country that has had a “sense of decency and fairness in its foreign policy.”

But that can be compromised, he added, by siding too much with Israel.

“I think the critical point for any Western government — Canadian, American, British — is to differentiate between supporting the security of Israel and opposing the colonization polices of Israel. Israel within its 1967 borders is a phenomenon the world accepts, even the Arabs,” Khouri said.

“Any real friend of Israel should tell Israel, `we support you, your security but we don't support what you're doing'.”

Leaked Israeli diplomatic cables, obtained by the newspaper Haaretz, give details about its foreign ministry's diplomatic offensive to counter the Palestinian UN campaign.

Israel's marching orders to its embassies are to lobby politicians, and use Jewish groups and the local media to make its case.

“The goal is to get the country in which you serve to vote against recognizing a Palestinian state,” said the memo given to Haaretz. “Your plan must include approaching the most senior politicians, mobilizing the relevant force multipliers (such as local Jewish communities, non-governmental organizations) using the media, influencing local public opinion, and public diplomacy aimed at all relevant communities."

Democracy and autonomy for some, tiny American flags for others!

[AshleyO]

This is about Canada, actually. Right? You said so.

Democracy and autonomy for some. Tiny Canadian flags for others.

[Saya]

Canada does it because Harper will do anything the Americans want. He was all for Canada going to Iraq, and would've sent us if he had power at the time.

He's following the American example, even if Obama supports the pre 1967 borders, the House of Representatives voted to cut aid to Palestine if they approach the UN looking for statehood.

[AshleyO]

Are you saying that America is telling the Canadians what to do? That's interesting.

[Saya]

The Harper government is a puppet of the states, by choice, although I think Harper was a bigger fan of Bush than Obama. But then Obama is pretty conservative by Canadian standards.

[AshleyO]

So what you're telling me is that the United States indirectly annexed your ass and we didn't even try? I think this is what you'd call a bloodless revolution.

[Saya]

I think you need to look up the definition of "revolution", Kontan. Besides, its not like Harper has the support of the Canadian people, he's prime minister with only 40% of the popular vote. He'll probably get thrown out in four years for a far left party, or be reduced to minority again, but in the meantime, lead the way, America!

But anyway, what I was trying to point out, was that there is absolutely no concern for democracy or autonomy, which countries like America and Canada have been involved in wars over. Iraq deserves freedom! But not Palestine.

[AshleyO]

Is this Kontan thing some kind of inside joke? I never got that shit. You got Stockholm syndrome or something?

[Saya]

Thats right, play dumb.

[Despanan]

These days Obama seems conservative by American standards.

As to the topic, You know what I think? I think, in this situation, the Canadians are worse than the Americans.

That's right. At least the Americans, for the most part, believe in what we're doing. We believe that the God of the Jews is our God (and yet somehow Allah is not). We believe that Israelis are better than Palestinians, and we believe that we're doing the right thing. As fucktarded, and jingoistic, and cruel and blind as we are, at least we're convinced we're in the right.

You Canadians? You're falling into line with us because you're too spineless to make a fuss. You people aren't siding with us because of some deeply held "knowledge" that this is the right thing to do, but because you don't want to piss off your American and British friends.

How Canadian.

[AshleyO]

If you've got me somewhere, it'd be there. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

These days Obama seems conservative by American standards.

As to the topic, You know what I think? I think, in this situation, the Canadians are worse than the Americans.

That's right. At least the Americans, for the most part, believe in what we're doing. We believe that the God of the Jews is our God (and yet somehow Allah is not). We believe that Israelis are better than Palestinians, and we believe that we're doing the right thing. As fucktarded, and jingoistic, and cruel and blind as we are, at least we're convinced we're in the right.

You Canadians? You're falling into line with us because you're too spineless to make a fuss. You people aren't siding with us because of some deeply held "knowledge" that this is the right thing to do, but because you don't want to piss off your American and British friends.

How Canadian.

Well, America is the one blackmailing Palestine if they so much present the vote to the UN.

Anyway, that isn't quite how the history of American support worked. Truman actually opposed the partition of Israel and Palestine, and America voted against an independent Israel state. He had supported them at first, but then decided American Jews weren't quite American enough, and popular American support was against Israel, and Israel had to lobby hard to get him to change his mind, until an old Jewish friend of his had to beg him to meet with Israeli officials. The Soviet Union eventually decided to support Palestine, so the lines were drawn by the Cold War. Israel is an old ally of the United States, and the United States is the number one trade partner of Canada, and Conservatives care little for anything but business. Harper has to latch onto something before he learns Mandarin. Maybe the religious right has justified it in this way, but that was an effect, not the cause.

[Despanan]

Don't blame your countries greed and passivity on my countries jingoism.

There are TONS of historical causes for the current clusterfuck that is the middle east. The fact of the matter is, Canada is not choosing to be part of the solution, it's actively choosing to be part of them problem.

Call out my people all you want. We deserve it, but at least we have ignorance as an excuse. We WANT to do the right thing no matter what, we're just confused about what the right thing is.

Canadians? in this, you just seem concerned with perpetuating the status quo, because to disrupt it would be too traumatic. (Which is currently getting people killed).

You can goddamn bet if the shoe was on the other foot, Americans would be rioting and learning Mandarin.

In this case, it takes two to tango Saya, and your government is Cha Chaing all the way to the bank.

[Saya]

Did I say anywhere that I support the Canadian government? And Harper is pro-war, it isn't a fear to disrupt the status quo, he really does believe in traditional American policy. The far right of Canada wants to emulate the far right of America, because they think they are, well, right. The problem with the Conservatives of Canada is that they know we are traditionally left leaning, centrists at best, they can't take away health care or abortion without risking never getting elected again ever. They fear us enough to know there is quite a limit to how far Canada is willing to go.

Besides, Canadian's Liberal party was pro-Israel as well. This isn't quite a change, except that in a vote for autonomy, we would rather deny Palestinians that right, like Americans will. So, even though we say we were awesome for Afghanistan and Iraq because we spread democracy and freedom like herpes, we only do that when its convenient for us.

[Ben Lahnger]

You people find the most amazing things to argue about. And by "amazing" in this context I mean silly.

Saya, why U let dem troll you so, hun?

[Despanan]

On a slightly different note, it's really stupid for the U.S. to oppose Palestinian statehood.

You don't make peace by erecting barriers and banishing someone from the table. Palestine is appealing to the UN so that it can be recognized as an official state, with the rights, privileges, and responsibilities that this implies.

This is a GOOD thing. It means the Palestinians are trying to join the conversation through official, international channels.

If you grant them official statehood, it would be a major step forward in the peace process. Israel would have to stop being such D-bags to them because they're no longer a rebel population, but instead an actual country, and Palestine would have to put a serious reign on it's own militants in order to protect it's image as a legitimate country.

People respond to context, and if the world keeps treating the palestinians like they're outsiders and criminals they're going to behave like outsiders and criminals.

[JCC]

My country could beat up your country, your country's a pussy.

[Despanan]

The far right of Canada wants to emulate the far right of America, because they think they are, well, right. The problem with the Conservatives of Canada is that they know we are traditionally left leaning, centrists at best, they can't take away health care or abortion without risking never getting elected again ever. They fear us enough to know there is quite a limit to how far Canada is willing to go

Man, I can't wait 'till Foxnews comes to Canada and you people have to contend with the greatest propaganda machine since the 3rd Reich giving your countries insane redneck's a podium and a giant bullhorn. We'll see how much they actually fear you then.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by JCC

My country could beat up your country, your country's a pussy.

Nahh Ahh! My country knows KUNG FU.

[Grausamkeit]

Well, my country knows Couch-Fu!

Beat that, sucka!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Man, I can't wait 'till Foxnews comes to Canada and you people have to contend with the greatest propaganda machine since the 3rd Reich giving your countries insane redneck's a podium and a giant bullhorn. We'll see how much they actually fear you then.

Trollery aside, we actually got a Conservative news channel now, and nobody watches it. Its viewership is poor and even those who are watching it seem only to be watching so they can report to the CRTC that they are violating the CRTC's code of ethics. they got double the complaints than the CRTC normally gets in a year and they've only been on since April.

[Despanan]

Is it Fox?

Edit: As for "Trollery", honestly, I'm not trolling you. (No more than usual anyway). I really think Canada is in the wrong here, even moreso than the US and GB and I think you do the entire process a great disservice not including Canada with the "miniature American flags" line. (Simpson's reference non-withstanding).

I don't know WHAT AshleyO is doing (She's probably Trolling). As to her being Kontan...Well I'll just let Kontan decide how he wants to play that one.

[Despanan]

Also, as to the "Canada being at the US's beck and call".

Dude, no one in America CARES about Canada. You'd get some flak from pundits and maybe an Oreilly boycott, but that's about it.

You can't use the: "We're your innocent puppets" routine when the man YOU elected is a true believer in US style conservatism.

[AshleyO]

How the hell did a right wing nutjob take over Canada, a left leaning country? Oh yeah! Probably because Canada's left isn't hawkish enough.

[CptSternn]

The same thing happened in Ireland. The current party is the right-wing conservative party. They got power though because the centre left party that was in power were feckin eejits and wrecked the country.

It's happening everywhere sure.