Goth Gothity Goth Goth Goth

[MollyMac]

OK- I re-read this as it sounds like an attack. It isn't- It's just a question based on what I have seen here and on ofthe forums that are based around a subculture:


So, I joined this place because it is allegedly a Gothic Lit forum. OK, notsomuch. This place is goth.

BUT- I am curious. the one thing that really sticks out about this board is how much time is spent and how many posts are made about what goth is, what it isn't, who is goth, and who is a poser and so on. Many have made claims ranging simply being of any subset of the subculture to "having no intellectual equal".

Half the posts are about acceptance of one thing or the other, and the other half are "... but that's not goth". Why does it matter? One person's dark is another's light. It's all perspective, not right and wrong, not a checklist of style, books, preferences... it seems silly to me.

I can see having interests, I can see having aesthetic preferences. I just wonder how many people simply have interests or prefer to define themselves by them? E. G. liking punk music as compared to being Punk... and so much time spent defining the parameters and posers when you could just live as you choose and not as Eldritch spaketh. Why debate the way you choose to live and your opinion of what is and is not goth- what does it accomplish?

Is it that the conformity to a (any) subculture makes people feel comfortable and less alone? That a preset guideline helps one to not have to think too much about likes and dislikes, about personal thought? Takes away teh uncertainty about decision making?

This is all coming out as an attack, and I am not intending it so.

OK, So I don't get it. Why spend so much time defining yourself or your chosen subculture? I don't see why so many would waste the time to squeeze into a label, a subculture, a music preference, a type et al; when so many others are more than willing to do it for you... and all the time defining your subculture and yourself within it, it seems many are trying to set themselves out as somehow unique within the subculture.

[maggot]

Well we're not saying that something's "bad" just because it isn't goth. There are things such as mallgoths that we dislike, though, because we feel they cast us in a negative light, and are ignorant little twerps.

Mediocrity is not tolerated. :P

EDIT: I also want to add that we have to have some form of parameters, or Flava Flav would be uber-gotik.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

It's just a question based on what I have seen here and on ofthe forums that are based around a subculture:

I cannot answer for other forums you have read, and the Gnet forum I will attempt to answer for will be based upon my limited observation time (I have been a member for only 4 months):

Originally Posted by MollyMac

1) Half the posts are about acceptance of one thing or the other, and the other half are "... but that's not goth". Why does it matter?

ANSWER: Because most of the members here are young, and the young (and hopefully the rest of us too) are trying to find out who they are, what lifestyles are out there, and if they want to integrate any of it into their lives. It is not so much a debate (in my humble opinion) as much as exploration.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

2) Why debate the way you choose to live and your opinion of what is and is not goth- what does it accomplish?

ANSWER: To see what stands the test of reason and logic; if views previously held do not stand the test of debate with peers, it is sometimes discarded. The same thing takes place in political blogs: I am not blindly loyal to a particular political party, I change my views as facts are obtained, and as my conclusions are reached. I have changed political affiliation in the past. Members here do the same thing, except with something far more interesting than politics.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

3) Is it that the conformity to a (any) subculture makes people feel comfortable and less alone?

ANSWER: I think there is thread around here somewhere that came to the consensus that everyone conforms: if you wear clothes you conform. If you learn a language you conform etc.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

4) That a preset guideline helps one to not have to think too much about likes and dislikes, about personal thought?

ANSWER: Members here actually do think a lot. And I think they prefer to discriminate between likes and dislikes. Not sure where this view came from.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

5) Takes away the uncertainty about decision making?

ANSWER: hoo boy, members here DO love decision making! No mistaking that!

In summary, I think my answer to number 1 applies to the other questions too.

Gnet people: What say you? Am I off the mark, are there other answers you have for MollyMac?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

That a preset guideline helps one to not have to think too much about likes and dislikes, about personal thought? Takes away teh uncertainty about decision making?

Goth is a big part of our self-image, but a minimal part of our line of thought.
I believe there's the difference that almost no one sees.
The self-image can define how a person acts, but not necessarily how a person thinks. I say goths are extremely exclusive when it comes to an image (which is not to be confounded with judgmental), but we are completely liberal and accepting to different mindsets.
Where I'm getting at with this is that "gothdom" in no way influences our decisions, except maybe for the trivial ones like "what should I wear today?"
We don't wear WWRSD bracelets.
This issue is only a hot topic of discussion because of society's obsession with individuality above all else.
I can look like a cliché and still be my own ruler if my decisions are not subordinate to that cliché.
Someone that doesn't want to identify himself by a label can fall into an equal disgrace of defining his mindset by his own individuality. A common example of this is when one of this label-shunning "individuals" decides to go against his own logic because it tells him to do something that is chic, therefore limiting his own decisions to those which aren't "trendy", regardless of the logic behind that "trendy" choice.
In a nutshell, my self-image's a visage by which people can identify me, not understand me. Calling myself a Goth limits me only to the same extent as calling myself a Mexican would limit me.

[BlackButterfly]

Hmmm... I have also noticed that a lot of the members don't necessarily define themselves as "goth" per se, but are attracted to certain aspects of the subculture in certain portions of their (young) life (the music, the literature, the aesthetics, etc. ).

Additionally, you can't really take all of the posts here discussing the "true nature of goth" seriously. I watched this site for about a year before I had anything to actually say on it, but I have noticed that a lot of the comments about what's "goth or not" are in jest.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

So, I joined this place because it is allegedly a Gothic Lit forum. OK, notsomuch. This place is goth.

I agree, mosts posts made stay in the realms of the "General" or the "Rant" sections. *shrug*

Originally Posted by MollyMac

BUT- I am curious. the one thing that really sticks out about this board is how much time is spent and how many posts are made about what goth is, what it isn't, who is goth, and who is a poser and so on. Many have made claims ranging simply being of any subset of the subculture to "having no intellectual equal".

Ahh, I've made similar posts regarding that. "Who cares", "Lets move on" or "Lets do something constructive" are obviously missing character traits, in general. The entire human populace is guilty of that. You could just replace Goth with, Punk, Skinhead, MetalHead, Mickey Mouse Klub or whatever for other subcultures. They would in all probability, be arguing over the same shit.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Why debate the way you choose to live?

I quite liked HumanePain's answer to this one actually. And I think that is a good question worthy of debate. The way you choose to live, could and should evolve as you incorporate new ideas and the like. That is if you like them. Not because they are Goth or Punk or whatever else.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

and your opinion of what is and is not goth- what does it accomplish?

Personally, I could'nt care less. But then again, I'm not Goth so my answer is, I suppose, biased.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Is it that the conformity to a (any) subculture makes people feel comfortable and less alone?

Again, the entire human populace is guilty of that. Why do you think religion has been so successful? I view conformity, more and more, as an oxymoron. Everyone conforms in their own way to something or the other. I think it is far more important to just be yourself and do whatever the fuck it is you like to do.


[/Zzz]

[MollyMac]

Alright- so far so good....

In the intro threads, it is not uncommon to read a statement "Welcome, but HIM is not really a goth band..."

Why debate the relative gothiness of a band? It would seem that there are as many different takes on gothdom as there are goths. It reminds me of the SCA in a manner, with the one harpie always trilling about what is considered period and what isn't period... all the time forgetting that she is in the twenty-first century...


Bah, everyone conforms whether they admit it or not. It is a valid point. It's trading in one conformity for another. I think what I was getting at is that many who consider themselves goth or whathaveyou do so to set themselves apart from culture generica. They don't conform to the general status of things and make a point in not doing so, often taking up a cross or wheel along the way (not speaking of Goth in general, mind you.) And so they conform to the subculture, willingly.

There seems to be a lot of infighting or debate over what that subculture is- in terms of music, look, attitude... Is it not enough to consider oneself goth or must one conform to some understood guidelines? (This is not directed at the non-goth members, but the ones who do consider themselves "goth")

Also- what do you think of those who take on a persecution complex (whether real or perceived) for a chosen lifestyle and not an inherent one (ie: choosing to be "goth" and being persecuted versus being homosexual and being persecuted)?

[MollyMac]

Too late to edit, forgive the double post. Jillian, you should totally do thr WWRSD bracelets.

[Minyaliel]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Alright- so far so good....

In the intro threads, it is not uncommon to read a statement "Welcome, but HIM is not really a goth band..."

Why debate the relative gothiness of a band? It would seem that there are as many different takes on gothdom as there are goths. It reminds me of the SCA in a manner, with the one harpie always trilling about what is considered period and what isn't period... all the time forgetting that she is in the twenty-first century...

As far as I know, this has only been said to members who clearly are new to the subculture and are still getting to know about it. As for the music itself, calling a pop band "gothic" would be like calling a Mozart piece "heavy metal" or "blues" - they're two entirely different genres. As a musician and student of music I know I'd rather give a newbie some friendly pointers in the right direction in either case (HIM/ Mozart) so that I wouldn't have to be embarrassed on that person's behalf later on.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Bah, everyone conforms whether they admit it or not. It is a valid point. It's trading in one conformity for another. I think what I was getting at is that many who consider themselves goth or whathaveyou do so to set themselves apart from culture generica. They don't conform to the general status of things and make a point in not doing so, often taking up a cross or wheel along the way (not speaking of Goth in general, mind you.) And so they conform to the subculture, willingly.

Or it just so happens, as it was in my case, that you did dress in a style of your own which might be considered gothic without realising it was so because you'd never heard about the subculture before and had never met a goth in your entire life. I believe the first time I ever heard the word "goth" used to describe anything else than buildings, litterature and that certain people that overran the Romans was in a musical review of a Nightwish CD I was giving my (NW- obsessed) friend for his birthday. I didn't like Nightwish, so I just continued listening to Loreena McKennitt and musicals.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

There seems to be a lot of infighting or debate over what that subculture is- in terms of music, look, attitude... Is it not enough to consider oneself goth or must one conform to some understood guidelines? (This is not directed at the non-goth members, but the ones who do consider themselves "goth")

Usually, when people ask me why I'm a goth, I tell them that "I'm me, and I'm goth. I can't help being myself, can I?" I do not think that conforming to any guidelines can make someone a goth. Goth is something in your mind, in your personality, and this cannot be taught. Sure, you might never know about it. After all, it was only a coincidence that I became aware that I wasn't the only weirdo out there... *mischievious smile* What I'm saying, I guess, is that if you're not born goth, you'll never be one, either. I can remember I thought the Count in Sesame Street was the coolest guy ever when I was small, as I thought that Morticia Addams was the most beautiful (painted) lady I'd ever seen. Even so, I was just a "normal" kid with smarts and a strong (inherited) musical sense.

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Also- what do you think of those who take on a persecution complex (whether real or perceived) for a chosen lifestyle and not an inherent one (ie: choosing to be "goth" and being persecuted versus being homosexual and being persecuted)?

If someone's chosen to step outside of society's accepted norms, that person should do so reflectedly, knowing exactly why (s)he does so. Just doing it to follow a fashion trend is wrong, and would not make that person content in the end anyway. So if you've chosen it, you should be able not to give a damn, and, if necessary, to defend your choice. If you can't, then perhaps you should think closely about what you really want, because going outside of the norm is going to attract people's attention.

[HumanePain]

Great answers Minyaliel! Especially regarding the music debate.

[Draconysius]

HIM are seen as "not gothic" because, in actuality, they're not! While the psyche and ideology of the gothic subculture is open to personal interpretation, the classifcation of gothic MUSIC is not. Seriously, to us, calling HIM gothic is like calling 50 Cent Satanic death metal. It just doesn't describe the music at all. All genres of music are defined after a few forming years, and once they're defined, there's no going beyond the boundaries.

Now, these forums did start as gothic literary forums. Some of us still enjoy taking part in the literature thread. However, this forum has attracted goths who do not read quite as much, and they feel welcome here because the gothic subculture is not just about literature.

As for the conforming, it's part of human nature. We all conform to a certain degree. What's important to us is to conform into our own niche in society, one where we actually feel welcome.

Now, about the kids who choose to dress goth and still whine about how society treats them: It's annoying as hell. I believe that anyone who can't handle to consequences of dressing differently should simply not do it. We all have natural, reflexive moments where an insult offends us, but we just have to remind ourselves that's it's human nature to hate something you fear.

[SKot]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Alright- so far so good....

In the intro threads, it is not uncommon to read a statement "Welcome, but HIM is not really a goth band..."

Why debate the relative gothiness of a band? It would seem that there are as many different takes on gothdom as there are goths. It reminds me of the SCA in a manner, with the one harpie always trilling about what is considered period and what isn't period... all the time forgetting that she is in the twenty-first century...

I've seen this happen on a lot of intro posts. I think it's due to so many kids coming in here misinformed and thinking that because they pierced their brain, wear huge baggy black pants and listen to Slipknot that they are now goths. Locals here get tired of it, and eventually start telling people off the bat, "Look, Slipknot (etc.) is not a goth band, and listening to them doesn't make you a goth." That's my perception, anyway. I'm not defending that action and I don't generally do that myself, but I think that's why it happens.

Bah, everyone conforms whether they admit it or not. It is a valid point. It's trading in one conformity for another. I think what I was getting at is that many who consider themselves goth or whathaveyou do so to set themselves apart from culture generica. They don't conform to the general status of things and make a point in not doing so, often taking up a cross or wheel along the way (not speaking of Goth in general, mind you.) And so they conform to the subculture, willingly.

I define conforming more as altering yourself to fit a conceived image of what you should be instead of who you really are, akin to shaving down a round peg to fit in a square hole. But when a subculture already matches your own aesthetics and personal interests, then you've just found that round hole you belong in. Where is the conformity in that? You're already there.

On the other hand, I agree that there are a lot of square pegs that are trying to force themselves in the round hole as well. They see the goth subculture as something cool or rebellious to impress people with, and they alter themselves to try and fit the perceived image. That is conformity, to be sure. But this is not the ideal we are striving for, and these people are not 'us'.

There seems to be a lot of infighting or debate over what that subculture is- in terms of music, look, attitude... Is it not enough to consider oneself goth or must one conform to some understood guidelines? (This is not directed at the non-goth members, but the ones who do consider themselves "goth")

Like my tagline says, "Your Goth is not my Goth." Everyone does have their own particular take on what goth is, which is okay, because goth is a gem with many facets. However, while it is difficult to define exactly what *is* goth, it is certainly a lot easier to agree on what is blatantly NOT. And the biggest problem I think people have is being associated with things that they find repulsive due to them being (mistakenly) considered 'goth'. For instance: when we as a subculture started being associated with the Columbine killers, that was one of the worst things that ever happened to us. We do NOT want to be associated with this kind of thing, and will speak out loudly against it when it happens. This is a more extreme example, but the idea also applies when people come in here and claim that listening to some offensively bad metal band, hating your parents, and cutting your wrists is 'goth'. You can't expect people not to say anything when that happens.

Also- what do you think of those who take on a persecution complex (whether real or perceived) for a chosen lifestyle and not an inherent one (ie: choosing to be "goth" and being persecuted versus being homosexual and being persecuted)?

This is a real gray area; because unlike with sexuality, nobody except the person involved really knows for sure if their lifestyle is a chosen one or one they really were born into. I would say I can't be any other way than the way I am. If that happens to make me a goth, then so be it. If goth became something else that wasn't me, I would still be myself and not a goth. I'm prepared to take persecution for it, but I'm not going to go out of my way to offend people. Those who do and then complain when they get flak for it get no sympathy from me. However, people who get beaten up just because they happen to wear black a lot definitely are being unjustly persecuted.

--SKot