Nonsense

[Onetwothree]

You're sitting at a table playing a game of poker, but this isn't any normal game of poker. You are playing against a dealer who ALWAYS has a straight-flush. You are only allowed to bet once, and you have to bet it all.

Now, how many people would play that game? Would you bet it all, in the hopes to get a royal flush? Or is that completely insane, and impractical?

If you answered yes, then you are correct. That's a completely insane choice.

The chance of getting a royal flush is 1 in 650,000 approximately. This is a very unwise choice to make.

But I see people making this choice all the time about something else: God.

Now, why is it when it comes to money, or anything else concrete we can make rational, and even wise decisions? But when it comes to God, or anything else abstract, we must be almost insane.

Like love for instance. We claim that the person we love is worth more than anyone on the planet. Is that a rational thing to say at all? How is your lover, or you, worth more than a leader of an entire state, or a scientist? Or a person who cures a major disease?

We often hold insane beliefs, and irrational feelings because they are comforting to us, or the people around us. But, we cannot say with absolute certainty about a stranger who is the better person. When we take away our emotions from the situation, it becomes very clear that it's impossible to say who is better than the other.

When we take away our emotions in the case of God, the answer becomes clear. The chances of him existing are even worse than the chance of winning the hypothetical poker game. Your chance of being correct is 1 to near infinity [assuming you are theistic].

Any sort of deity has an equal chance of being correct as God, of any religion, of any mind, of any imagination. Yet, people needlessly gamble on this. Then evoke Pascal's Wager noticing that the entire argument falls apart when there is more than one possible thing to believe in.

So here is the problem. I present this simple wager:

If you are right, you gain whatever the deity wishes to give you. Maybe it's hell, heaven, a magical basket of fruit, etc. And your chances are near infinitely low.

If you are wrong, then you've wasted a life committed to rituals, false-hopes, nonsense, pseudoscience, and generally wasted the lives of others around you by brainwashing them with things that are untrue, hindered many sciences (if you are Christian), and repealed the rights of others (if you are of any major religious group [think Islam/Catholicism]. And your chances of being wrong are near infinitely high.

But, if you shed irrational belief you get this:

If you are right, then you gain nothing. You lose nothing. You live a full 'real' life. The chances are infinitely high.

If you are wrong, then you gain either paradise, hell, a magical fruit basket, etc. But the chances are infinitely low.

The irony here, is no matter what you 'believe' you could be believing the wrong thing. It's equally probable that there is a 'deity' that loves atheists and gives them a special heaven with 43 virgins. Just as probable as there is an Allah, or a Tetragrammaton. These things are all equally probable. So even if you do believe, and you 'win' per se, you may win the wrong deity. Because when you enter the realm of possible deities, then you will be met with so many possibilities that ANYTHING can happen.

I digress; never forget that all of those possibilities are equally impossible.

This entire matter has never been a matter of who is right. I won't say I am 'right' about this, but I am as close as a human can get to being right, and that is what matters, because it's all we can do right now.

So consider it for a while, and if you openly deny this without any proof of your rebuttal, then you are a fool.

[Tha Duckman]

I'm sorry, could you explain that more elaborately, and make the post three times as long?

[Onetwothree]

Try harder.

[Tha Duckman]

Me = Can't be fucked.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Onetwothree, can you give up the broken record routine?

[Lapin]

That was long. And pointless.

You're a preachy little thing, and honestly, you're starting to irritate me. I don't care what your beliefs are or arn't, and you shouldn't care about mine. I'm not hurting you.

Do you have a headache from looking down your nose so much?

[honeythorn]

For fucks sake, WHY do you care? why come here and repeat yourself endlessly? What business is it of yours what people here believe ? I know this is a public forum and therefore you can post whatever you wish, but I do not see any reason for you to keep coming back under different names and bleating on and on . Are you really that bored?

If you do not agree with what people here believe that is your fucking problem. From what I have seen no-one here has attempted to convert you to their faith or tried to make you change your opinion on your beliefs, (and therefore they owe you no proof of their various faiths) . The least you could do is have the common fucking courtesy to do the same.

Why do you feel this constant need to try and " educate " people whom you appear to consider below yourself? No one gives a shit. No one here needs to " try harder " to do anything to fucking please or pander to you and your expectations. Fuck off.

[badteccy]

Didn't read a word.

[KontanKarite]

It is pretty bad that I saw this coming by just reading the title. Predictable.

If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the fanatics. They make no sense at all it seems.

Essentially, it's like this. If there IS NO GOD or afterlife, then why would I feel like shit for living my life the way I do? I wouldn't feel a damn bit more liberated if I became an athiest and the world would seem more boring and sad.

Also, what do I gain from being an athiest? I can be more hedonistic? Fuck that shit anyway. We both can probably agree that hedonism is pretty much self serving to the max. Kinda bleh if you ask me.

Again, I'll say it: My spirituality does not require you to believe. I expect you to use your head and come to your own conclusions. Truth is more than likely perception anyway, so your good news is not my good news and I would NEVER expect you to follow my path. It's not for you, it's for me.

[Onetwothree]

The answer is right in front of your faces. Yet you openly deny it. This is what annoys me. It's not a matter of being right or wrong; it's a matter of being as close as possible--because it's as good as we can get currently. Yet you will accept nonsense as a coping mechanism.

So are you all openly denying the probability (which is easily proven right), or are you denying that you care if you are wrong?

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

For fucks sake, WHY do you care? why come here and repeat yourself endlessly? What business is it of yours what people here believe ? I know this is a public forum and therefore you can post whatever you wish, but I do not see any reason for you to keep coming back under different names and bleating on and on . Are you really that bored?

If you do not agree with what people here believe that is your fucking problem. From what I have seen no-one here has attempted to convert you to their faith or tried to make you change your opinion on your beliefs, (and therefore they owe you no proof of their various faiths) . The least you could do is have the common fucking courtesy to do the same.

Why do you feel this constant need to try and " educate " people whom you appear to consider below yourself? No one gives a shit. No one here needs to " try harder " to do anything to fucking please or pander to you and your expectations. Fuck off.

It's mind-boggling. The facts and statistic are right here. You can review them a hundred times. Study all the angles, and you will come to said conclusion above, and you STILL choose to believe in God. Doesn't that make you by definition, unwise?

You are playing a game that you have nearly no chance at winning.

If you can find a way to prove my probability wrong, then I can say, "sure, have your beliefs."

If you ignore the probability, then you are a total fool. But I guess you are what I said at the last part:

"...if you openly deny this without any proof of your rebuttal, then you are a fool."

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Lapin

That was long. And pointless.

You're a preachy little thing, and honestly, you're starting to irritate me. I don't care what your beliefs are or arn't, and you shouldn't care about mine. I'm not hurting you.

Do you have a headache from looking down your nose so much?

Did you even read it? Are you denying the probability, or are you ignoring it?

Because if you deny the probability, then give me some proof as to why. It takes a little bit of thinking to come to the simple conclusion of the near impossibility of God.

But if you are ignoring it, then as I said:

"...if you openly deny this without any proof of your rebuttal, then you are a fool."

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

For fucks sake, WHY do you care? why come here and repeat yourself endlessly? What business is it of yours what people here believe ? I know this is a public forum and therefore you can post whatever you wish, but I do not see any reason for you to keep coming back under different names and bleating on and on . Are you really that bored?

If you do not agree with what people here believe that is your fucking problem. From what I have seen no-one here has attempted to convert you to their faith or tried to make you change your opinion on your beliefs, (and therefore they owe you no proof of their various faiths) . The least you could do is have the common fucking courtesy to do the same.

Why do you feel this constant need to try and " educate " people whom you appear to consider below yourself? No one gives a shit. No one here needs to " try harder " to do anything to fucking please or pander to you and your expectations. Fuck off.

P.S. If your beliefs are so bullet-proof, why do you need to be so militant about it? I provided a calm, nigh-expository essay on it. Yet how did you respond? Like a raving lunatic. Maybe if you were more like me, you'd be calmer.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Truth is more than likely perception anyway

No.
Relevance of Truth is what is only about perception.
Truth is objective.
There's a concrete universe out there. It keeps changing. It keeps developing. But it's absolute.
Reality is a concrete entity. There are many speculations about Reality, but only one can be correct.
The thing is that with every individual, Truth is only as true as they want it to be because Truth has no authority.
An individual can decide what's true and what's not for him and there's nothing that can say he's wrong in his perception.
But this is an absolutely selfish way to live. This sounds more hedonistic than atheism, because you deny objective truth for preferential truth.
It would be like taking half of the money all your friends possess and convince yourself that they are happier because they gave to a friend.
We live in an absurdist world, and some people believe it's a subjectivist world because the human mind is inherently selfish, and if they don't realize the world is not subjectivist, their selfishness just falls back into itself, resisting all kinds of argument by use of circular reasoning.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

No.
Relevance of Truth is what is only about perception.
Truth is objective.
There's a concrete universe out there. It keeps changing. It keeps developing. But it's absolute.
Reality is a concrete entity. There are many speculations about Reality, but only one can be correct.
The thing is that with every individual, Truth is only as true as they want it to be because Truth has no authority.
An individual can decide what's true and what's not for him and there's nothing that can say he's wrong in his perception.
But this is an absolutely selfish way to live. This sounds more hedonistic than atheism, because you deny objective truth for preferential truth.
It would be like taking half of the money all your friends possess and convince yourself that they are happier because they gave to a friend.
We live in an absurdist world, and some people believe it's a subjectivist world because the human mind is inherently selfish, and if they don't realize the world is not subjectivist, their selfishness just falls back into itself, resisting all kinds of argument by use of circular reasoning.

Very eloquent argument. Except, if I wrote it, I'd be called a douchebag sonofabitch. I also presented an eloquent argument, but hey...no one wants to consider they may be wrong. It's all just circular logic, strawmen, slippery-slopes, and arguments from ignorance with them.

[Valrys]

If there actually is a god, all us athiests are gonna be mighty embarrassed.
And anyway, any chance of a god means these religions could be right. A 1 in infinity chance is still better than a chance of zero. And that royal flush will come up...eventually
And really, can you just not let other people have their views? Are they harming you? I doubt it. Live and let live. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all the members here of the many different religions posted a similar essay but with flipped views.

And where did you pull up that statistic for the chance of God existing? And I think that comparing it to a card game was a bit silly. You can redeal the cards, and you might have a chance of getting a royal flush. God either exists or he doesn't, although..........."Aww, god didn't show up this time, pass me the cards and I'll reshuffle.....oo, look, there he is!"

Also, why the red text? That was pointless. We can read white perfectly well

Edit: Just had a thought. There Would be people who would take those odds on that game of cards, they might win!(A Slim chance, but still a chance) Aren't people following a religion taking a gamble on there being a deity and an afterlife, just as athiests are doing the opposite?

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Valrys

If there actually is a god, all us athiests are gonna be mighty embarrassed.

Why? If there is a God, then he is a deceptive one. He has left no evidence for his existence. It's equally as possible that atheists will be rewarded, and morons who believe based on blind-faith will be punished forever.

It's just as probable.

And anyway, any chance of a god means these religions could be right. A 1 in infinity chance is still better than a chance of zero. And that royal flush will come up...eventually

That's not the point. The hypothetical poker game can only be played once. Should I have used a slot-machine and you only have a quarter as the analogy? Because you just don't get it.

And really, can you just not let other people have their views? Are they harming you? I doubt it.

They are harming me. I can't say what I want, and I can't live how I feel like living because of religious persecution. Because I don't believe in God, I've been treated like shit my entire life, and I did not lash out until recently, because I have to. There is no legitimate reason to respect religion. I may respect the person, like Galileo, or Newton, but I CANNOT respect their beliefs. It's nonsense.

Live and let live. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all the members here of the many different religions posted a similar essay but with flipped views.

I'd be delighted to see a religious person make up a rational argument to counter mine. That's what I want to see. Do you think I am set in my ways like you? You're wrong.

And where did you pull up that statistic for the chance of God existing? And I think that comparing it to a card game was a bit silly. You can redeal the cards, and you might have a chance of getting a royal flush.

This hypothetical game can only be played once. Also the statistic for 'God' is a simple one. There are an infinite amount of possible 'gods'. So the chance of any particular God is infinitely low. You just don't understand the point of the thought-experiment. You are the kind of people I am not targeting, because you are too dumb, and I'll never be able to change your mind, because it's been made up before the evidence even came in.

Edit: Just had a thought. There Would be people who would take those odds on that game of cards, they might win!(A Slim chance, but still a chance) Aren't people following a religion taking a gamble on there being a deity and an afterlife, just as athiests are doing the opposite?

No, atheists are taking the OPPOSING gamble which is: 1 in ~infinity to be wrong, and theists are taking the gamble of 1 in ~infinity to be right.

My chances of being right are approximately infinitely higher than YOURS. Yours are approximately infinitely LOWER than mine. But if you want to gamble like that, then whatever.

I am sure I will never see you play that game of hypothetical poker. I mean, if you want to, we can. I would love to take your money.

P.S. It's spelled atheist.

[Lapin]

And you didn't listen to a word I said. Why must you try so hard to convince everyone you're right? Why is it so important?

I don't understand you in the slightest. Oh, I understand your logic, and it does make sense, because contrary to your apparant beliefs about me, I'm not bloody stupid. What I don't understand is -you-.

You're just like those Christians who go door to door with pamphlets or stand on the street preaching. You're pushy, preachy, and up a little too high on your horse for your own good.

If you're right, big deal. It just means I'm dead and don't care anymore.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Lapin

And you didn't listen to a word I said. Why must you try so hard to convince everyone you're right? Why is it so important?

I don't understand you in the slightest. Oh, I understand your logic, and it does make sense, because contrary to your apparant beliefs about me, I'm not bloody stupid. What I don't understand is -you-.

You're just like those Christians who go door to door with pamphlets or stand on the street preaching. You're pushy, preachy, and up a little too high on your horse for your own good.

If you're right, big deal. It just means I'm dead and don't care anymore.

What? I think I'd have to be high to understand what you just said.

[Lapin]

Let me use simpler sentences then:

You need to leave people and their beliefs alone.

You need to accept that people like having religion, and don't care about the odds.

You need to learn some humility before someone hits you for being an arrogant bastard.

[Porphyria]

First it's the Jehovah's Witnesses, then the Mormons, then those people at the airport... now the Atheists are pushy? I really don't appreciate people trying to tell me what to think, especially in the realms of religion and politics. It implies that these people don't recognize that I'm clever enough to ponder these subjects on my own. It also makes me suspect these people aren't so confident about their own positions on things. Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to convince everyone around them that they're "right." They'd simply be happy with their own beliefs (or lack thereof) and leave it alone.

[Lapin]

(snuggles up to Porphyria) Thank you for saying what my abstract nervousness cannot.

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Porphyria

First it's the Jehovah's Witnesses, then the Mormons, then those people at the airport... now the Atheists are pushy? I really don't appreciate people trying to tell me what to think, especially in the realms of religion and politics. It implies that these people don't recognize that I'm clever enough to ponder these subjects on my own. It also makes me suspect these people aren't so confident about their own positions on things. Otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to convince everyone around them that they're "right." They'd simply be happy with their own beliefs (or lack thereof) and leave it alone.

Is this all you can say? More fucking illogical appeals? Dodging the question, etc.?

Can't ANY of you actually ATTACK MY ARGUMENT AND NOT ME? Ad hominem won't make my argument fly away, dumbass.

Forget it. I fucking win, and all of your belief systems, and beliefs are utterly invalidated, indefinitely because you cannot even support a single fucking one.

Whatever, I'm content now. I now know there is no hope for any of you here. What did I expect anyway...you're all stupid ass emo kids anyway. *sighs*

[Onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Lapin

Let me use simpler sentences then:

You need to leave people and their beliefs alone.

You need to accept that people like having religion, and don't care about the odds.

You need to learn some humility before someone hits you for being an arrogant bastard.

Why should I learn humility when I am right? If people don't care about the odds when it comes to that, then why should I trust them with anything else? Well it is true...75% of the prison population is filled with believers. So, I really have no reason to trust believers at all anymore if you are all so intellectually dishonest, and mentally incapable.

Well, I'm glad I knocked you off of your pedestal. Have a nice day.

[Lapin]

I am not dodging the question.

You believe one thing, I believe another.

Logic says a lot of things. Faith does too.

I believe you're insulting and snobby. But I respect your want to believe something else.

A pedestal? What pedestal? I don't think I'm better than you. I just think we believe seperate things, and you need to learn to be more accepting.

Just because people have faith doesn't make them stupid. It just means they have faith.