"goths" plot high school massacre in New Jersey

[Engulfed_in_darkness]

Media has become so lazy then~... *Rolls eyes and sighs*

[Corpus_Draconis]

Sobeh, what you said about the media copying and pasting is true. I set a google alert to send me an e-mail whenever something in the news comes up with "goth" in it, and you have NO IDEA how many articles I got about the "Goths hurt themselves" study. They said the same things, same quotes, same "oh but it might not be the subculture's fault..." tucked discretly at the end. *sighs and rolls eyes*

[Sobeh]

Originally Posted by Corpus_Draconis

Sobeh, what you said about the media copying and pasting is true.

It happens all the time. In fact, you have freelance reporters (one of the many, many jobs available to freelance writers) submitting their work to places like Reuters and the Associated Press, which then distribute their articles all over the place. You'll even see Reuters and AP tags in places like the New York Times and the Chicago Tribune. It's a much closer network of organizations than you might like to think, which is why the generalization of 'the media' has some social capital.

It does us each well, however, to realize that the news caters to those who pay the bills, which in the final analysis is you and I. It isn't 'the media' that's responsible for the reduction of the greatest common factor in news reporting, it's the nation-centric two-party dichotomy in the United States that's doing it. <-- And I say that because European news material is generally of a higher quality than that produced by US companies.

[Icarian Decoding]

I had somewhat of a revelation today. It wasn't one of those, "OH MY! JESUS IS REAL", style of revelations, but personally, it was revelant. Taking a look around my highschool, I have come to a few conclusions. One, there are way too many trashcans in our commons, and that the security of our highschool is severly lacking.

So, let's say John Doe decided that it was time to do as he wished. Security at most campuses at school are severly lacking, so he would most likely meet no objection to getting into the school. Infact, at most schools, you can just walk right in, unchecked. Then, you would most likely meet one or two cops.

It worrys me how much the security at schools is lacking.

[burningangel]

While the trashcans part of your revelation confuses me, the lack of security is not something that can be easily fixed. I mean exen airports, and government buildings in Washinton have security problems. I agree that at least some security is needed, but it will rarely be enough to stop anything but the most half hearted attempts, and then probably not not reliably enough.

[Draconysius]

Yes, there really is no way to completely prevent events like this. Even if all existing guns and knives were destroyed, you'd still have the issue of simple, everyday items like pencils, rocks, and... pigs!

[Icarian Decoding]

Yes, but that doesn't take away the fact it's still scary.

The reason I mentioned the garbage can, is because I was going to do an example of how easy it would to harm a school, but I decided not to. I'm not going to be responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

[Feralboy101]

You know the boys who commited the Columbine massacre?Their web page actually said that they hated "goths".But thanks to the over-eager media, the two boys were labeled as goths.Also, they were not members of the so-called "Trenchcoat Mafia", an unofficial school group in whihc the kids wore trenchcoats.
And another thing.A town actually put up signs at the town limits, claiming it was a "Satan-free zone".The mayor said she was targeting "Rapists,Pedofiles, and kids dressing goth".
Kinda pisses me off.I'll try and find the actual report.

[Nardol]

It's lucky these weren't particularly motivated and technically inclined teenagers.

But let's say we were at a technical high school. Anyone with access to tool and die shop equiptment could make a gun in the two weeks or so that they had been allegedly planning this. The machines and tooling are no big hurdle, even a very small local "job" machine shop has most of it, and the kind you might find in a very well supplied high school metal shop would do. The materials are a joke, as far as expense is concerned. Convincing your instructor to get it would be easy, if he/she didn't find or figure out what it was for, since, in my expierience, genuinely interested students are about as rare in tech subjets as any other. Research the history of the Sten gun (used by the french resistance extensively in WWII) and you'll realize just how cheap and rudimentary an effective (though unreliable and inaccurate as it would be, it would be more than enough to kill 25 people) fully automatic can be.

Sorry for rambling, my point is that the technology is available even to the age bracket in question. It would be even more plausible for, say, a European teen to do this where vocational training often starts at 14.

The knowledge is a little harder to find, what with our wonderous educational system. But between what you could learn in school if you paid attention to some good science, trig, and calc teachers, watched the discovery and history channel and read on the internet, it is certainly concievable that a dilligent highschooler could figure out how guns operate.

So thank god kids these days aren't the hardworking industrial sort America bred in the first half of the twentieth century. Such a person could build numerous automatic weapons and arm a small gang.

I feel that while the authorities are, in fact, broadly accusing a group of subcultures under one name which they suspect as being subversive of genuine maliciousness, it is very hard to consider even very retrictive security measures to such a serious possibility as being too reactive. On the other hand it won't benefit them or us any if the media is simply using hype and inadvertantly raising public intolerance, in order to keep people watching and reading. It's what media does best, to my reckoning, and it never seems to get recognized that media groups are constantly twisting words for sake of drama.

This is where I think the situation now lies. The police are trying to describe a group they aren't familiar with (and if they were they'd know it's not homogenously cohesive or organized, and that we are looking at the actions of individuals, not the actions of a group, after all if "the goths" wanted to kill someone it wouldn't -I hope- be as trivial as a schoolmate), and they catagorize what they are looking at quite broadly. The media grabbed onto some poorly chosen words that school administators and potential prosecutors used, in order to develop interest in the story, especially among middle-aged parents/conformists/sheep. All of the teens in question, will likely be persecuted to the greatest degree law and public support will allow, whether directly, off-handedly or remotly involved, by the legal interests, judges who want to get re-elected/appointed and lawyers trying to make themselves look good.

Really I think such dangerous adolescents are a product of society and should be institutionalized (indefinately, if needed), rather than incarcerated and parents and society need to come to grips with what is ultimately thier responsibility to the development of children into decent young adults. I don't blame parents for these problems directly (who would tell thier kids it's ok to to kill people?), but it is thier duty to raise good children. I feel that good parents can raise good children irrespective of neighborhood, ethnicity, income etc. I believe that parents must actively seek to do this and not just assume that it will happen.

[Icarian Decoding]

Nardol, I have to disagree with you on a few points. Unless I mention it, I probably agree, but there are some points where I have to argue.

So thank god kids these days aren't the hardworking industrial sort America bred in the first half of the twentieth century.

Unfortunately, I would have to say we are, just in a different way. Sure, we're not out making guns, but what would be the point of that? You'd just be increasing the fear of death. They are industrious, and not stupid.

Really I think such dangerous adolescents are a product of society and should be institutionalized (indefinately, if needed)

That's the same thing as incarceration. It's like being sent to Guantanmo Bay. You may not be a terrorist, but as soon as you go there, you are. People there, don't listen to alternative forms of logic, or your thought pattern. It's not a debate for your sanity, it's an execution of your freewill through drugs. I'd rather go to prison, on that hand.

I feel that good parents can raise good children irrespective of neighborhood, ethnicity, income etc.

The problem with that statement, in my point of view, is you are defining good. To me, making stone knives is fun. Therefore, in my mind, it is good. Likewise, alot of people will think it is bad. As soon as you tell them something is bad, they don't do it, they don't explore that area. Then where do they end up?

Also, I have had these thoughts. I have had thoughts of taking a gun to school and fucking up every bastard who screws with me. Sense has taken me away from that every time, and I most likely won't do it. But the potential is still there. My parents raised me in a "Good Christian Pro-American" home, but I still know these things. I know how a gun works, I know the basic principals behind a conventional and atomic bomb, and I know where to get the material. But I don't do it.

It's like, if you hand a child The Anarchist Cookbook. He will read it, and he will know the knowledge. He will know the potential is there, and he will know about all the wonderful things he can do. You can never take that away. You can raise him the best you can, but he will still know it. You would have to stop him at the source, by taking that book out of his hands. But then where would it stop? Next thing you know, we take all the valuable knowledge he could have, by taking the principals away from him.

Like I said above, I know how to make a conventional and atomic bomb. At age 8, seeing something that powerful was a euphoric experience. It sparked my quest for all things technical. If I had the knowledge of the atomic bomb removed from me, I probably wouldn't be here. It's a risk you have to take. You either teach the kid, or you leave him to rot mentally. You have to hope he doesn't go on the fritz if you teach him.

[chelseagirl]

An actual article defending "goths".....hmmm....pretty crazy!

http://www.courierpostonline.com/app...604080355/1006

[WolfMoon]

The only part that bothers me about that article is the part where the author of the Gohic Bible says, "There's kids who wear all black and get straight A's"


D'oh!

[Nardol]

That typo 'are' hysterical.

First of all, the idea of a "gothic bible" is a little too cookie-cutter for my taste, although I cannot say for sure what the books about, I've not read it. But the idea that one can become something from what they read in a book is absurd.

On the other side of the coin, a good reference for unusual subjects would be invaluable. There are a few things I've been cautious and curious about. Things like which cosmetics do NOT mix with homemade lemon-based paleing creams. The best mordants for dyeing velvet. Etc.

[Puppet Master]

Originally Posted by Feralboy101

You know the boys who commited the Columbine massacre?Their web page actually said that they hated "goths".But thanks to the over-eager media, the two boys were labeled as goths.Also, they were not members of the so-called "Trenchcoat Mafia", an unofficial school group in whihc the kids wore trenchcoats.
And another thing.A town actually put up signs at the town limits, claiming it was a "Satan-free zone".The mayor said she was targeting "Rapists,Pedofiles, and kids dressing goth".
Kinda pisses me off.I'll try and find the actual report.

Satan free zone o_O.....rigghtt what town is this? The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me...... If people are going to go there they will go there, no matter what anyone fucking says. You cant stop a pedophile, rapist, murderer, thief with a sign....is this lady thick or somthing.

Also to say "people dressing gothic"......makes no fucking sense either, there is not really a set clothese for gothic. Does she mean wearing black? WELL A LOT OF FUCKING PEOPLE WEAR BLACK......omg....this world...

About the plan thing, well if they had more brains they would have succeded, not like I am condoning such acts. People die every day, mass killings happen *shock horror* every day, so what difference does it make where it happens? It pisses me off when people shout and swear when someone dies in there country yet ignore it when it happens in another. So these kids would have killed some people? so these kids are giving goth a bad name? people give each other bad names constantly, and people will always find someone to blame. They have been doing it to each other for millenia, and we dont evolve that fast to suddenly stop hating everyone.

...yeah I know this turned into a rant >_>...

[Alrek]

Originally Posted by Puppet Master

...yeah I know this turned into a rant >_>...

No need for any bit of shame...it's reassuring that people still rant, otherwise it would be a sign something is *very* wrong :P

[Child_of_Fury]

Another intersting proof about the damn discrimination;

I was on the 1st grade when I argued with a friend of mine. Eventually, I punched her - our teacher just said: "Don't do that again." That's it.

I was on the 3rd grade when I began studying martial arts. I got into an argument again, but this time, the guy tried punching me. I parried his punch and gave him an uppercut. Our teacher said: "She's a martial artist, she knows when it is appropriate to use her skills." (!!! - okay, I was a bit amazed by that sympathy.)

Last year, still being a martial artist, but also labeled as a 'goth', a guy that was notorious for fighting came to pick a fight with me. I had to parry his kick with all my strength, and whaddayaknow, he got a small bruise on his leg. Now _I_ was the one to blame; "a gothic, violent, angsty teen who knows martial arts is a walking time bomb!"

I was lucky I wasn't kicked out from the school.

[Vampeilla]

To all those kids who blame society for there wrong doings, who portray the "goth" as evil people who kill, massacare, and take force through riots and blood shed, too damn bad your mothers didn't have an abortion.
Just think how nice the world would be without you, you want rights, you want "independence" well bend over, a good kick in the behind is what you need.
Today to many youth hide behind false walls, blaming everyone else for thier mistakes instead of facing reality. They should be taken behind the woodshed and whipped into shape.
These kids need to face reality properly, they know right from wrong. I am sick to death of hearing "my parents did this", my parents did that". They need to grow up and stop whining.

[SweetAbsinthe666]

Just makes me want to kill off those people causing more bad name to the Goths. They should just get a shrink for themselves instead. All of the Christian stereotypes should be thrown away.

[Godslayer Jillian]

What the spork?
You went from killing gothic stereotypes to disposing christian stereotypes.
How does that make sense?

[Magpie_Tendencies]

I was thinking the same thing Jillian... then I decided that maybe it would be best to simply back away.

[SweetAbsinthe666]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

What the spork?
You went from killing gothic stereotypes to disposing christian stereotypes.
How does that make sense?

What I'm really trying to talk about is getting rid of stereotypes made by bigoted Christians. However, I'm apologise for causing some confusion when I say that.

[SweetAbsinthe666]

Well, I have to think for myself more cleary from now on. BTW, thank you for your advice.

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

Stupid mindless idiots. Who the hell cares what they dressed like??? We don't need people like that making articles like that addressing the students as "goth." And I mean the students themselves were idiots, but my god.

[spookshowbaby]

Originally Posted by burningangel

thanks Xnguela

Yup, sounds like they were probably metalheads, anarchistic/genericly angry punks, or just mabey "goth". Cause god knows, genericly wearing black makes you a perfect example of goth, or any other social group.

Now whats this i hear about red velvet?

I know this sounds like total BS to some of you, but I know one of the boys personally, I cant say how because if It ever got back to me he may be mad at me for saying this. Being an elder-goth myself, (partied in the philly subculture for years), I know a goth when I see one, and I can tell you all that NONE Of these four boys were goth. I asked this boy that I know who is now serving time for this (although he told me personally that he did not plan to go through with this and it was more the other boys then him) I do believe him but he should have notified someone if this were the case...anyway, I asked him if any ofthe boys knew one fricken goth band and they had no clue!!! They are rivet/metal heads and the one boy (not the one I know) has a devil worshiping site on his myspace account, according to the (boy I know) the other boy, sort of the ring leader has parents who are really major devil worshipors and do drugs...just goes to show youhow screwed up our world is that this is happening. Anyway, I would like to say that none of these so called gothic trenchcoat mafia know what goth really is, this is media hype and Im sure I dont need to tell any of you that. I do however suggest we do something about this, I for one was thinking of writing an article in my local paper about this and in Philly PA since some of our biggest goth clubs come out of philly, actually where I live in Jersey there are NO goth clubs, the media and the public should know what it means to be goth and how we do not propogate violence. I cant even get work surrounding my job If I look remotely "goth" anymore because of all the negative hype surrounding this. Im too old to be partying and going clubing but I still enjoy the gothic subculture and I love listening to the music but god fricken forbid if any of my coworkers found out or theyd be wearing bullet proof vests and shit to work ROTHF!!!!

[Electrolyte]

One thing that annoys me is with people coming out with comments such as "you wear black, therefore you're goth" but that's not always the case. True, I used to know a goth in secondary school who I haven't seen for years (but I want to see him again) where he used to wear black and wear bracelets, but he was such a friendly and open minded person, yet people found he was "evil" - except me. Being goth doesn't mean violence at all - I wish people would realise that