Discrimination

[CptSternn]

Found this today and thought it spoke volumes...

House passes bill to make voters show ID

http://news.**********/s/ap/20060921...ltBHNlYwM3MTY-

WASHINGTON - The House voted Wednesday to require Americans to show proof of citizenship in order to vote, and the Senate moved to build a 700-mile fence along the Mexican border as Republicans sharpened attacks on illegal immigration before the midterm elections.

*snip*

Congress is enacting a new set of 'Jim Crow' laws. Barring those without a driving license from voting. Since aquiring such a document could take up to six months, they can keep minorities, the poor, and any group that doesn't drive much (ie 'liberals' who use public transportation instead of a car) from voting.

And lets not forget the new wall they want to build. Thats just sad. I mean, america, founded by immigrants, is now saying 'were full'. Guess they need to remove that plaque from Ellis Island - seems kinda ironic.

I remember pat bucannan had that idea as a campaign pledge during his election. He was branded as a right wing racist. Now, bush says its a good idea.

Whilest other countries like Germany, South Africa, and other are working to REMOVE the walls in their society, america is actively looking to BUILD more. Nothing says oppression like a 30 foot high wall surrounding yer country.

I say let them build a wall surrounding america. 30 foot high. Impenetrable. Then someone sneak in and turn a few water faucets on and let nature do the rest

[nuksaa]

Barring those without a driving license from voting.

Wrong. Actual requirement is "require voters to present a photo ID that could not have been obtained without proof of U.S. citizenship" (source)

Since aquiring such a document could take up to six months,

Odd, considering most DMV make the driver's licenses on the spot. Usually takes about 30 minutes to make one.

But what about those unable to obtain a driver's license? Well, they would have to get an ID. And as far as proof of citizenship is concerned, that is usually conducted by showing either a birth certificate or naturalized citizenship document. Both of which can be obtained in about 2 weeks should the original be lost.

Not sure how the 'poll tax' equates into this. Per H.R 4844 report number 109-666:

`(B) IDENTIFICATIONS PROVIDED AT NO COST TO INDIGENT INDIVIDUALS- If a State charges an individual a fee for providing a photo identification under the program established under subparagraph (A)--

`(i) the fee charged may not exceed the reasonable cost to the State of providing the identification to the individual; and

`(ii) the State may not charge a fee to any individual who provides an attestation that the individual is unable to afford the fee.

pat bucannan had that idea

The idea has been around before Pattycake Butthead raised his nasty snout.

[CptSternn]

Actually I was talking about the other part of the same bill which was about building the new 'wall' around america that bucannan used as a platform when running for president.

The berlin wall is down, the walls seperating the colours in South Africa were taken down, now the us is building a 30 foot razorwire wall with watchtowers and armed guards. Welcome to the new prison nation.

I personally don't think its going to be used to keep people out as much as it is going to be used to keep people IN.

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

Personally I think you should be able to vote without any proof of anything. If you live in America you should have the right to vote. But that's just me.

As for the wall, I have nothing to say about that.

[chelseagirl]

Originally Posted by Crying_Crimson_Tears

Personally I think you should be able to vote without any proof of anything. If you live in America you should have the right to vote. But that's just me.

As for the wall, I have nothing to say about that.

Well, they do need to make sure that people don't vote more than once, and if we just let anyone walk in to voting centers and cast votes without securing identification from them, people could vote multiple times...

[Crying_Crimson_Tears]

True, but couldn't we find a better way to do that???

[Dizzy1313]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Actually I was talking about the other part of the same bill which was about building the new 'wall' around america that bucannan used as a platform when running for president.

The berlin wall is down, the walls seperating the colours in South Africa were taken down, now the us is building a 30 foot razorwire wall with watchtowers and armed guards. Welcome to the new prison nation.

I personally don't think its going to be used to keep people out as much as it is going to be used to keep people IN.

Being an ex-pat, the thing that popped into my mind upon hearing this for the first time (besides shock at what a RIDICULOUS and HORRID idea this is) was, well, who is going to build this wall/fence/whatever if the U.S. gets rid of all the illegals?? I read an article the other day (can't remember where, so sorry to not cite my source) about how fruit is rotting on the trees in California because there are no people to pick it!
Seriously, these days when I hear news from home, it reasserts the old adage "the truth is stranger than fiction."
I just hope that folks back there figure out a way to organize and save themselves before Bush and the mentality which he symbolizes eats the U.S. from the inside. Granted, I haven't been there for a while now, and I left a VERY conservative part of the country, but before I left last time, things seemed sci-fi how out of control things had gotten with big-business and the right-wing (same difference if you ask me) running the show. It seemed to me like as long as things are cheap at Wal-Mart, people are complacent. But nobody asks the question "why?" things are so cheap, who gets screwed over to keep things so cheap, and how long before they start to get screwed over themselves. Seems to be happening to a lot of my friends already in fact.

[Darkbender423]

First of all I agree with the statements that anyone who is a citizen of this country should be allowed to vote. Everyone should have a voice in the things that happen here that effect their life and their nation. Yet we must have proof of citizenship which does require some form of ID. This insures that people who are voting actually have the right to do so and it does keep people from voting more than once and brining unbalance to the election process. What I'd like to see is more candidates worth voting for.

As far as the building of the fence. I have mixed thoughts on this one. I hate the thought of have this physical barrier put into place, it seems a little fascist to me. I don't agree with Capt. Sternns comment on it being built to "keep people in" that is simply absured. Illegal mirgaration to this country is a major problem in many areas. People come here and they don't pay taxes and they take jobs away that could be done by Americans. I am sympethetic to the need of these people to make higher wages and support their families. Most of them are hard working and simply seeking a better way. However there are legal ways to become a citizen of this country that cannot be ignored. My ancestors went through the process as did many of the millions of other Americans who live here. It is only fair that others follow the same guidelines. I do think we should make more of an effort to find ways to help boost the economies of some of these countries so that the need to seek a better way becomes less important. Of course we have to do this wihtout taking away from our own people. It seems like there should be a simple solution to this problem that could benifit everyone and make things better for our people and for theirs. I think that in most cases these people don't really have an interest in becoming citizens, they just want to make more money so that they can better support and take care of their families. I respect and understand that. It just seems to me that if our governments would work more closely together we could help one another and the issue would be a mute point.

[CptSternn]

DarkBender -

We have a whole thread on illegal immigration. Before you start throwing out the common neocon arguments like ilelgal immigrants don't pay taxes, illegal immigrants cost tax payers money because of their kids going to school/hospitals, illegal immigrants take american workers jobs, etc. you should check the many websites that have stats on this.

Also visit our other thread on this. Not to rehash the whole thing, but a few quick comments you can check out and post about in the other thread...

1. The jobs they take are ones that americans will not do anyway. Without these workers, California fields would go untended - even with the illegals farm owners STILL are short labour EVERY year - you don't see any americans flocking to fill the still very real void that is present.

2. They do pay taxes. Americans are taxed more than any other first world country. Ironically, they get less from their taxes than most every other country as well, because the government claims to be capitalist instead of socialist, but thats a topic for another thread. You are taxed when you are paid, but lets remember a majority of that is for unemployement and social security - things illegals can't get anyway. They are then taxed on the things they purchase so they pay the same tax as you. If they put their money in a bank or invest it - it's taxed again. At the end of the day, they are on par with legal americans on the amount they actually pay in tax (multiple studies show this).

3. The amount of illegals in schools and visiting hospitals is dwarfed by the amount of indigent americans who claim status to not pay at the same institutions. Once again, many studies show this.

Check the other thread - you will see links, info, and lots of things you had no idea about (most all arguments for keeping out illegals are all falsehoods)

Think about this - with 14 million illegals in the states today, if the government wanted them out or thought they really were a drain on society do you not think they could have them removed? Removing them would hurt the economy in such a way america could not survive. Tis why they are still there.

Also realise there is no wall in history that has ever stopped people from crossing it. If they build a big wall, people will still find a way around it. And they know it - in fact, they are hoping they will. The wall is merely a symbol, not a barrier.

[Darkbender423]

I didn't "rehash" a thread, I simply picked up on the conversation that was already taking place here. As for the "wall" or fence, hey I agree with you on that one, people will find a way and it doesn't make much sence to me at all to build a fence to keep people from crossing over. I never claimed to be all for the wall and shit. I think its a stupid idea. I'll check out the thread on immigration as you suggested. For the record though, I do understand why those people are coming here and I'm not against them seeking a better wage and life. That is what our country has been built on, people seeking a better life. I just think that there is a right way to do it and a wrong way. I also understand that we can't just send these people back in droves, we need to find a way to make it wnere thaey can do what is necessary to be here in a legal way. Where have you been by the way? Haven't seen you post for awhile.

[CptSternn]

See americans thread - www.struggle.ws/rsc - Check the indymedia links and read the latest.

[CptSternn]

Race disparities persist in U.S.

http://news.**********/s/ap/race_disparities

WASHINGTON - Decades after the civil rights movement, racial disparities in income, education and home ownership persist and, by some measurements, are growing.

White households had incomes that were two-thirds higher than blacks and 40 percent higher than Hispanics last year, according to data released Tuesday by the
Census Bureau.

White adults were also more likely than black and Hispanic adults to have college degrees and to own their own homes. They were less likely to live in poverty.

"Race is so associated with class in the United States that it may not be direct discrimination, but it still matters indirectly," said Dalton Conley, a sociology professor at New York University and the author of "Being Black, Living in the Red."

"It doesn't mean it's any less powerful just because it's indirect," he said.

Home ownership grew among white middle-class families after World War II when access to credit and government programs made buying houses affordable. Black families were largely left out because of discrimination, and the effects are still being felt today, said Lance Freeman, assistant professor of urban planning at Columbia University and author of "There Goes the 'Hood."

Home ownership creates wealth, which enables families to live in good neighborhoods with good schools. It also helps families finance college, which leads to better-paying jobs, perpetuating the cycle, Freeman said.

"If your parents own their own home they can leave it to you when they pass on or they can use the equity to help you with a down payment on yours," Freeman said.

Three-fourths of white households owned their homes in 2005, compared with 46 percent of black households and 48 percent of Hispanic households. Home ownership is near an all-time high in the United States, but racial gaps have increased in the past 25 years.

Black families have also been hurt by the decline of manufacturing jobs — the same jobs that helped propel many white families into the middle class after World War II, said Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington office.

Among Hispanics, education, income and home ownership gaps are exacerbated by recent Latin American immigrants. Hispanic immigrants have, on average, lower incomes and education levels than people born in the United States. About 40 percent of U.S. Hispanics are immigrants.

Asian Americans, on average, have higher incomes and education levels than whites. However, they have higher poverty rates and lower home ownership rates.

The Census Bureau released 2005 racial data on incomes, education levels, home ownership rates and poverty rates Tuesday. The data are from the American Community Survey, the bureau's new annual survey of 3 million households nationwide. The Associated Press compared the figures with census data from 1980, 1990 and 2000.

Among the findings:

_Black adults have narrowed the gap with white adults in earning high school diplomas, but the gap has widened for college degrees. Thirty percent of white adults had at least a bachelor's degree in 2005, while 17 percent of black adults and 12 percent of Hispanic adults had degrees.

_Forty-nine percent of Asian Americans had at least a bachelor's degree in 2005.

_The median income for white households was $50,622 last year. It was $30,939 for black households, $36,278 for Hispanic households and $60,367 for Asian households.

_Median income for black households has stayed about 60 percent of the income for white households since 1980. In dollar terms, the gap has grown from $18,123 to $19,683.

_Hispanic households made about 76 percent as much as white households in 1980. In 2005, it was 72 percent.

_The gap in poverty rates has narrowed since 1980, but it remains substantial. The poverty rate for white residents was 8.3 percent on 2005. It was 24.9 percent for black residents, 21.8 percent for Hispanic residents and 11.1 percent for Asian residents.

Thomas Shapiro, professor of law and social policy at Brandeis University, said the "easiest answer" to narrowing racial gaps is to promote home ownership, which would help minority families accumulate wealth.

"The wealth gap is not just a story of merit and achievement, it's also a story of the historical legacy of race in the United Sates," said Shapiro, author of "The Hidden Cost of Being African American."

Shelton, of the NAACP, called for more funding for preschool programs such as Head Start, improving public schools and making college more affordable.

"Income should not be a significant determining factor whether someone should have an opportunity to go to college," Shelton said.


In Ireland, college tuition is paid by the state for anyone who is accepted. Its sad that in a country like america, smart students because of their families background are denied access to higher education.

Also, this once again highlights bushs tactics - which are a direct copy of Stalin. Getting rid of the middle class is what the right wing in america is trying to do. The middle class hold the values of the lower improverished, but have access to political power. To achieve a government which is in full control of its people you must eliminate the middle class.