Goth VS. Poser

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

Goth music has evolved from romantic deathrock to hardcore deathrock (with a heavier punk flavor), dark synthpop has evolved into darkwave, industrial noise has evolved into ebm... you get the idea.
There's even a completely new cybergoth subculture that has blossomed from goth.

...

Scenes are created by people, but once they've found the scene's music, fashion, aesthetics, etc... It's in solid stone.

Which is it? Evolution, or set in stone?

We wouldn't want to hear a hip-hop band referred to as "punk" and likewise with goth. If it were any other way no goth would WANT to belong to such a chaotic scene because we would only belong with the scene back when it was about a gloomier side of life, not when it was some nationwide monster rap sensation. Fuck that.

I'm afraid that the terms 'goth' 'punk' and 'emo' have become almost interchangeable. I'm not saying it's desirable, nor am I saying it's correct, but the lines have visibly blurred among the subcultures.

Again, I'll say that if you really don't want to 'lie down like a beaten dog' your best course of action may just be simple, civil interaction with younger members trying to break into the scene.

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by PinstripesAndPithHelmets

Which is it? Evolution, or set in stone?
I'm afraid that the terms 'goth' 'punk' and 'emo' have become almost interchangeable. I'm not saying it's desirable, nor am I saying it's correct, but the lines have visibly blurred among the subcultures.
Again, I'll say that if you really don't want to 'lie down like a beaten dog' your best course of action may just be simple, civil interaction with younger members trying to break into the scene.

Ah, I forgot to mention that sounds can gradually evolve, but once they reach a certain point where they bare no resemblance whatsoever to the original sound, they can no longer be considered part of the genre.

I try not to worry about setting baby bats straight. They'll grow out of it and gothic rock will remain the same. Their poseur subculture will survive, but so will goth. Bauhaus didn't stop being a gothic rock band when Marilyn Manson controlled the mainstream goth scene, so why should a second mainstream flood damage it? We know what's what and it's so underground it rarely ever falls under the radar of the mainstream. Us real scenesters are in the know. We laugh in the face of the public's ignorance.

[Draconysius]

Eh, I've made my mind up and I'm done here. No use in arguing any further.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

I'm not really what one would consider a "scenester", so I'll have to take your word for it. I tend to stick out in the local goth club, but for the most part people there have been civil towards me, and I think that sort of attitude can only help things. Hence my argument.

[Ishan]

This is most definitely a good topic, as I was wondering about these things myself. I was looking for a new pair of boots, and nobody seems to have the right kind. That's alright ... training boots will do for now.

I believe a person who is goth - and I identify myself as Goth, as well as Celtic-Pagan and generic Pagan (because I am) - is a person who can appreciate both the light and the dark side of human nature. I most definitely have a dark side. Anyone who has ever felt a genuine homicidal urge knows they have a dark side. The light side is not exercising the urge to kill.

Then there is the ethereal need to explore death, but not for the sake of dying - it is a need to further understand life that compels one's interest in death. But death is not perceived, at least not by me, as a state of non-amination. It is a transition.

Then there are the colors ... I do not subscribe to only black and red ... my favorite color is blue ... I will say I never met a Goth who thoroughly enjoyed pastels. That's laughable. I love rich, bold and sensuous colors.

As for art ... I believe anyone who is Goth can find a way to bring both light and dark into a single image, song, carving, writing, etc. Art is the ultimate expression of the human experience. It is used when other forms of communication would breed misunderstanding, or when they would be inappropriate.

And don't get me started on the fascination with the horror movies ... I personally don't have a fascination for them because most a really stupid. I don't understand the fascination. Now stories like the Vampire Lestat, Interview with the Vampair, Queen of the Damned - and the books that begat them - those I find fascinating. They all represent the impelling nature of the dark side, and the need to tame it properly with the light.

Remember, there is no light without darkness ... neither shall we find shadow without the sun.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I understant what Pinstripes is saying, and she is quite right. Truth is made by those in power, which in this case would be those that make up the majority.
If people that know Peter Murphy stop existing, or exist in such diluted levels that they don't matter, Goth will indeed be whatever the spookykids say it is.
But the real essence of Goth would just vanish and be replaced by another under the same name. The shell without the content.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

I'm male, believe it or not.

[whispertwist]

Can a newbie chime in?

New to the scene as well as new to this board.

One thing i sensed that impressed me is a profound sense of alienation with pop culture and with common societal standards. There is a wide acceptance of differences .... paradoxically wrapped in a fairly uniform goth look.

I see the look and the music more as badges of membership in the community rather than the essence of the community.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Quite true. Goth has its own popularity contests, but generally I (and I hope no one else) see it as nothing but something that makes fun of itself while staying cool.
Oh, and pinstripes, haha, sorry I confused you. For some reason your avatar made me think you were a girl.

[PinstripesAndPithHelmets]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Oh, and pinstripes, haha, sorry I confused you. For some reason your avatar made me think you were a girl.

No worries. Guess now I'll have to reassess my attempts at conveying masculinity through an icon of a skull smoking a meerschaum pipe. Drat.

[raggedyanne]

My grandma smokes a pipe. not that it has anything to do with the fact that she, like some people, cannot fathom that new and old can be blended to make something that doesn't taste like the underside of a goat.

[IsolatedReptile]

How does one define the darker side of life? It's popped up in a couple of answers, and I'm curious. Is it depression? Social deviance (if so, then some arguments of goth being a lack of care for the mainstream are self refuted)?

It's an answer several people use that almost seems like a cop out. It's a vague and general description for people who wear black. Of course they enjoy "darker" things. What darker things though?

[raggedyanne]

think of it this way: instead of going right along with the heroes and hating the villain, you'd wonder about why the villain was like they were and probably sympathise with them... okay bad analogy, but I think that liking the "darker side of things" is looking deeper into issues, fashion, or thinking that others might pass up for "fluffier" things

[Clockwork]

Maybe not even fluffier things, but just more accessible things. There's a whole element of liking things that deviate from the norm or are otherwise unnoticed by the general populace that I think a goth tends to possess.

[whispertwist]

Originally Posted by IsolatedReptile

How does one define the darker side of life? It's popped up in a couple of answers, and I'm curious. Is it depression? Social deviance (if so, then some arguments of goth being a lack of care for the mainstream are self refuted)?

It's an answer several people use that almost seems like a cop out. It's a vague and general description for people who wear black. Of course they enjoy "darker" things. What darker things though?

Perhaps part of it is a loss of innocence, a recognition that the world is not a nice place. It makes the pockets of peace and tranquility that one does find all the more to be treasured. Pain makes pleasure more vivid. Awareness of death throws life into sharper relief.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by IsolatedReptile

It's an answer several people use that almost seems like a cop out. It's a vague and general description for people who wear black. Of course they enjoy "darker" things. What darker things though?

Something symbolic, perhaps. Like a haunted area or a grotesque looking mammel, something generally shunned or unaccepted. Like Klaus Kinki's Nosferatu's philosophies. Also, this is off topic but IR you seduce me with your poetic wordplay

[KontanKarite]

If you want to go by generations, you have to realize, even the young know the difference.

Drac is a perfect example, as is Jillian, of how the young can DISTINGUISH a difference between goth music and pop music.

Manson will always be "goth", MCR and HIM will always be "goth", while us silent few who know better will sit back and be entirely detached from what the nay sayers are talking about.

Goth will always be misunderstood and people with completely wrong ideas on its sound will claim goth.

I for one, will sit back in my faded black jeans and calmly smoke my cloves all the while, laughing at what "goth" has become.

The mainstream never gets it right and why the fuck would we want it any other way?

The scene and the culture itself will sway any poser away from it. I would LOVE to take a "goth" kid who is devout to MCR and throw them into the middle of a pounding and powerful goth night.

They will either run away crying and screaming bloody murder, or they'll fucking learn.

[raggedyanne]

I'd like to at least attempt to learn

[KontanKarite]

I agree. But the thing is, a kid wakes up one day and thinks "Hey, I wonder what goth is all about. It seems cool."

That's the startings of a babybat. Then they go on what little knowledge they have and take in anything the mainstream will say is goth. That's when you get posers.

So, in all honesty, it's an act of ignorance. Again, I say that a babybat will learn and become a great member of the culture or they'll simply fade away back into their compartmentalized life.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Right. Though babybats grow into the culture, blending, as poseurs will go with it and treat as a "phase" as if it's unprotected sex. Only difference between that and unprotected sex is that only one of them has consequences...and I won't mention which one. XD
I know, such a comparison is politically incorrect, but...meh...

[raggedyanne]

so you can't get pregnant by being a poser? Cuz that would raise the teen pregnancy rates way higher. I'm not a babybat anymore, but I'd like to learn more about the music and fashion. Definantly want to dress better. X P

[Draconysius]

I was once a baby bat, though I've always had the potential for being goth. Even before I started wearing nothing but black and white, I was wearing nothing but red and black. It was for the simple fact that those were the colors of a dragon character I had dreamt up and often pretended to be. Even then I had a need to express myself in appearance.

Maybe, just maybe... goth doesn't come in a jewel case or bookshelf, or in some shiny black pants... maybe goth (the Grinch thought) means something more. Like one of life's agnostic questions, the purpose of goth is unreachable, unknowable. Of course there's the music, the fashion, the aesthetic, the state-of-mind, the individuality... but there's something else there that well... just can't be described or analyzed. You just know it's there, without a single doubt in your heart.

Maybe I finally understand what Xnguela (DarkHeartedDemoness) was saying so long ago... I couldn't be told what it was. I had to find it myself.

[raggedyanne]

then all the goths down in goth.net began to agree, and goth became something that evolved, but never with fangs, no not even for show, not even for me

I just had to do that, sorry

[maggot]

DRAC?! A BABYBAT?!

Never. :O

[BlackWidow]

Wait, wait, I have a good one....

Definition of a poser=an emo.

Lol ok I'm done.