How Much Jail Time For Women Who Have Abortions?

Beneath the Shadows · 08-01-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

How Much Jail Time?

Aug. 6, 2007 issue - Buried among prairie dogs and amateur animation shorts on YouTube is a curious little mini-documentary shot in front of an abortion clinic in Libertyville, Ill. The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless. You have rarely seen people look more gobsmacked. It's as though the guy has asked them to solve quadratic equations. Here are a range of responses: "I've never really thought about it." "I don't have an answer for that." "I don't know." "Just pray for them."

You have to hand it to the questioner; he struggles manfully. "Usually when things are illegal there's a penalty attached," he explains patiently. But he can't get a single person to be decisive about the crux of a matter they have been approaching with absolute certainty.

A new public-policy group called the National Institute for Reproductive Health wants to take this contradiction and make it the centerpiece of a national conversation, along with a slogan that stops people in their tracks: how much time should she do? If the Supreme Court decides abortion is not protected by a constitutional guarantee of privacy, the issue will revert to the states. If it goes to the states, some, perhaps many, will ban abortion. If abortion is made a crime, then surely the woman who has one is a criminal. But, boy, do the doctrinaire suddenly turn squirrelly at the prospect of throwing women in jail.

"They never connect the dots," says Jill June, president of Planned Parenthood of Greater Iowa. But her organization urged voters to do just that in the last gubernatorial election, in which the Republican contender believed abortion should be illegal even in cases of **** and incest. "We wanted him to tell the women of Iowa exactly how much time he expected them to serve in jail if they had an abortion," June recalled. Chet Culver, the Democrat who unabashedly favors legal abortion, won that race, proving that choice can be a winning issue if you force people to stop evading the hard facts. "How have we come this far in the debate and been oblivious to the logical ramifications of making abortion illegal?" June says.

Perhaps by ignoring or infantilizing women, turning them into "victims" of their own free will. State statutes that propose punishing only a physician suggest the woman was merely some addled bystander who happened to find herself in the wrong stirrups at the wrong time. Such a view seemed to be a vestige of the past until the Supreme Court handed down its most recent abortion decision upholding a federal prohibition on a specific procedure. Justice Anthony Kennedy, obviously feeling excessively paternal, argued that the ban protected women from themselves. "While we find no reliable data to measure the phenomenon," he wrote, "it seems unexceptionable to conclude some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained."

Even with "no reliable data," he went on to conclude that "severe depression and loss of esteem can follow." (Apparently, no one has told Justice Kennedy about the severe depression and loss of esteem that can follow bearing and raising a baby you can't afford and didn't want.) Luckily, there still remains one justice on the court who has actually been pregnant, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg roared back with a dissent that called Kennedy's caveat about regret an "anti-abortion shibboleth" and his opinion a reflection of "ancient notions about women's place in the family and under the Constitution—ideas that have long since been discredited."

Those ancient notions undergird the refusal to confront the logical endpoint of criminalization. Lawmakers in a number of states have already passed or are considering statutes designed to outlaw abortion if Roe is overturned. But almost none hold the woman, the person who set the so-called crime in motion, accountable. Is the message that women are not to be held responsible for their actions? Or is it merely that those writing the laws understand that if women were going to jail, the vast majority of Americans would violently object? Watch the demonstrators in Libertyville try to worm their way out of the hypocrisy: It's murder, but she'll get her punishment from God. It's murder, but it depends on her state of mind. It's murder, but the penalty should be ... counseling?

The great thing about video is that you can see the mental wheels turning as these people realize that they somehow have overlooked something central while they were slinging certainties. Nearly 20 years ago, in a presidential debate, George Bush the elder was asked this very question, whether in making abortion illegal he would punish the woman who had one. "I haven't sorted out the penalties," he said lamely. Neither, it turns out, has anyone else. But there are only two logical choices: hold women accountable for a criminal act by sending them to prison, or refuse to criminalize the act in the first place. If you can't countenance the first, you have to accept the second. You can't have it both ways.

Article Source

YouTube mini-documentary mentioned in article.

I think it's a valid question concerning the punishment for abortion if it is made illegal. If a woman hires a hit-man to kill her husband, she goes to jail just like the hit-man because she's responsible in part for the taking of a human life. Like-wise, a woman who hires an abortionist to perform and abortion is responsible in part for the taking of a human life (according to legislation that would make abortion illegal), so shouldn't she also go to jail just like the abortionist?

KontanKarite · 08-01-2007, 05:10 PM

Hmmm...

So, a woman gets *****, gets pregnant, has an abortion, and goes to jail for it?

Isn't that an odd series of events.

Beneath the Shadows · 08-01-2007, 05:21 PM

Well, how about a woman goes out, has consensual unprotected sex, gets pregnant, decides that she doesn't really feel like having a baby, has an abortion... and the doctor who performs the abortion goes to jail, but she doesn't even get a slap on the wrist?

Crying_Crimson_Tears · 08-01-2007, 05:39 PM

Abortion should be legal. Plain and simple.

Underwater Ophelia · 08-01-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crying_Crimson_Tears

Abortion should be legal. Plain and simple.

You wanna back that up or anything...? Or just throw statements around...?

Lapin · 08-01-2007, 05:47 PM

Abortion -is- legal for the most part.

I support abortion for a lot of reasons. I am a woman, and I might have to have one day in the future. A very good friend of mine had one at the beginning of the summer.

Its a hard decision and I just don't think its anyone's business but her's and the father's, if he's in the picture. And ultimately, its her choice.

Edward Strange · 08-01-2007, 05:55 PM

"As a former fetus I oppose abortion."

I always thought that one was rather clever, I read it on a protesters sign this one time...
...Not that I am opposed to abortion of course, if anything I am for it. But it gives me pause for thought when I think that aborted child could have been me...

Anyway! That is rather funky actually, I might just ask protesters that very same question. And not just about abortion. There was recently some things on the television to commemorate the legalisation of homosexuality here in the UK. It's rather hard to believe that people got sent to -prison- for the 'unthinkable crime' of being homosexual.
Apparently, the story goes that there was no anti-gay legislation for women because Queen Victoria didn't think ladies got up to that sort of thing. ><

"Well, how about a woman goes out, has consensual unprotected sex, gets pregnant, decides that she doesn't really feel like having a baby, has an abortion... and the doctor who performs the abortion goes to jail, but she doesn't even get a slap on the wrist?"

It is a very odd series of events, isn't it? It's the same with Euthanasia. I think the reason abortion was legalised here in the UK (one of the reasons anyway) was to stop women going to 'street abortionists' which would put them in really serious danger from disease and death.

Some people are going to have abortions one way or another, regardless of what people think. Might as well be able to offer them the chance to do it safely and cleanly.

Crying_Crimson_Tears · 08-01-2007, 05:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

You wanna back that up or anything...? Or just throw statements around...?

Leave me alone. I will say what the hell I want with or without back up.

Edward Strange · 08-01-2007, 06:09 PM

And who says the art of reasoned debate is dead?

Edward Strange · 08-01-2007, 06:55 PM

Apologies if that sounded rude by the way... <_<"

TopHaggardDoll · 08-01-2007, 06:57 PM

yeah, but abortion should be legal...

It is plain and it is simple. Accidents happen and some women aren't financially, physically or psychologically ready to have a child. How many more ****ed up children do we have to see in the world before people realise that sometimes abortion is necessary and the kindest thing to do? There are so many children in care who don't get adopted and so many who never have a steady home life, going from foster home to foster home. Never really knowing what it's really like to have a proper family. There are so many children who don't have a good home life, who don't get the opportunities so many other children can have just because their parents aren't ready to have children. Even the parents who should have used protection...why inflict their immaturity and their shit on a human life? There is nothing worse than an unwanted child already brought into this world...which is a darn sight more painful to see than abortion.

**** happens, women shouldn't have to live with the consequences of something forced on them. They should be allowed the choice, we all know damn well a desperate woman would go to backstreet abortionist just to take back control in their lives.

It's only right to let women have a choice. They're the ones that have to live with it.

Edward Strange · 08-01-2007, 07:10 PM

It's a good thing we have abortion on the NHS here in the UK then, isn't it? The choice is there, and also it's very safe for the lady (in comparison to going to a backstreet abortionist).

Underwater Ophelia · 08-01-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crying_Crimson_Tears

Leave me alone. I will say what the hell I want with or without back up.

Uh...ok.

How about actually being mature in a mature debate, though?

Crying_Crimson_Tears · 08-01-2007, 07:16 PM

How about leaving the people the hell alone???

You don't need to pick debates to get your kicks. If I want to do something I will, if I don't, oh freaking well.

Seektoamplify · 08-01-2007, 07:34 PM

Yeah leave her the hell alone.

Beneath the Shadows · 08-01-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Uh...ok.

How about actually being mature in a mature debate, though?

Where is this debate you speak of? If you want to start one, go ahead, but don't put down someone's debating skills when they aren't actually debating.

Now, do you have anything constructive to say about the topic, or are you just trying to pick a fight?

deafasadoornail · 08-01-2007, 08:09 PM

BACK TO THE TOPIC, CHILDREN.....

Here's the question as far as I see it. Abortion is a medical procedure. Euthenasia is also a medical procedure. Do we really want the government, the courts, the legislative bodies or anyone else to be making medical decisions for us?

I don't support abortion after the fetus would be otherwise viable without extraordinary measures (I think it's around 30 weeks right now? It's pretty early anyhow). When it can survive without the mother, it becomes a person in its own right.

And I think asking about jail time is a logical question. After all, so few people behave logically when asked about abortion -- or euthenasia, or gun control or any hot button topic. The only way we are going to survive as a civilization is if we can think logically and unemotionally about the consequences of our actions. Nobody really wants to jail these women, so let's come up with some other options shall we?

Lapin · 08-01-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crying_Crimson_Tears

How about leaving the people the hell alone???

You don't need to pick debates to get your kicks. If I want to do something I will, if I don't, oh freaking well.

Crimson, you have no reason to attack Ophelia. All she did was ask for your reasoning, something that should be provided in a debate. You didn't need to get rude.

You had this problem with Duck as well. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it.

EDIT: Beg pardon, I forgot this wasn't actually a debate, but a discussion. Still, no need to be rude.

CptSternn · 08-02-2007, 02:15 AM

I am a Catholic, and believe abortion is wrong. That being said I think it should be legal. My reasons for thinking it's wrong have no bearing on whats legal and not legal, nor should it play into any legal definition.

I also believe my personal choice and preference is mine, like everyone else has the right to have their own. Who am I to force my opinion and will on another human merely because my religion dictates a different path.

Everyone has to choose their own path. Forcing them to make a decision merely because your morals/ethics/religion dictate that is a bad way to run a free society.

Besides, if you make it illegal, it just means more women will have it done in back-rooms in less than perfect conditions, causing in the end more deaths because the mothers will die in attempts to get an illegal abortion. This happened for quite sometime in America, and still happens in countries where they have placed bans on them.

delicti · 08-02-2007, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafasadoornail

Here's the question as far as I see it. Abortion is a medical procedure. Euthenasia is also a medical procedure. Do we really want the government, the courts, the legislative bodies or anyone else to be making medical decisions for us?

Nice twist; I don't know if I agree with the logic, but cheers on the approach.

The government shouldn't be making medical decisions for us (you could argue the same thing with nationalized health care); it's a shame that anti-abortion advocates would argue that it's not your body you're making the decision about.

What's funny is the amount of good and bogus research that agrees with the current abortion limit. Not only does the current limit manage to cut things off right before the beginning of brain activity, but it also cuts it off before occultists from the early 20th century believed the soul entered the body.

Of course, I wouldn't quote 1900's occultists seriously, but as far as the religious argument is concerned, it's funny to see that one of the more thoroughly researched religions (which ought to be a contradiction of terms) would disagree with radical Christians about abortion. So maybe we should argue that since not all religions agree on when life begins, it's actually a freedom of religion issue, and as such shouldn't be government controlled to begin with? Now that would be a fun debate, even if one half of it would be a screaming match. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptSternn

Besides, if you make it illegal, it just means more women will have it done in back-rooms in less than perfect conditions, causing in the end more deaths because the mothers will die in attempts to get an illegal abortion.

Agreed. Ultimately, if the demand is high enough, it will find a supply. Criminalizing abortions may reduce the number of abortions performed somewhat, but ultimately it only makes it more dangerous for women who want - and will get - an abortion regardless.

Underwater Ophelia · 08-02-2007, 10:37 AM

I just posted this same question in an advice/discussion website, I'll copy and paste the answers in here once I get them.

I'm curious to see if anyone has a real answer as to what sort of punishment there should be.

Lapin · 08-02-2007, 10:44 AM

I don't think America would illegalize abortion again, despite having a conservative Supreme Court right now. Also, despite certain male judge's stupidity and lack of backed up "fact". (One of them claimed that women don't know what they're doing or some such tripe) (Our female judge gave him a what-for though) (*giggle*)

Besides, remember what happened when we banned alcohol?

delicti · 08-02-2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I just posted this same question in an advice/discussion website, I'll copy and paste the answers in here once I get them.

I'm curious to see if anyone has a real answer as to what sort of punishment there should be.

I think if (and if) we determined that at a certain point the fetus could be determined to be an autonomous being, and there are no extenuating circumstances, (which I believe is the intent of current law), I think that manslaughter is an appropriate charge.

Underwater Ophelia · 08-02-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delicti

I think if (and if) we determined that at a certain point the fetus could be determined to be an autonomous being, and there are no extenuating circumstances, (which I believe is the intent of current law), I think that manslaughter is an appropriate charge.

That would be a good idea, except that if it were illegal, the abortions would be "back alley" style, and there wouldn't be a way to tell 100% conclusively if the baby had in fact reached that certain point, because the mother doesn't save the fetus or anything.

delicti · 08-02-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

That would be a good idea, except that if it were illegal, the abortions would be "back alley" style, and there wouldn't be a way to tell 100% conclusively if the baby had in fact reached that certain point, because the mother doesn't save the fetus or anything.

True. Even if the law was passed, I can imagine it'd be extremely rarely enforced. I think the third trimester ban that is in place here is adequate, as far as timeline and everything is concerned.

It'd be nice to see better science behind it; until it stops being a taboo, we're not going to see that happen though. *shrug*