Christianity...

[Shub-Yoggoth]

I don't mean to cause a $hit storm, but I know they're isn't any invisible man up in the sky. I know that the story of Jebus was taken from the Zoroastrians. If this god does exist, he's been a sadistic SOB with drowning the Egyptians, wanting to fry Abe's kids and, what's worse, nailing his own son to a cross for what can only be described as a human sacrifice. I think that god is something humanity made up because A: The tribes were too lazy to worship more than one god and B: No god can be that much of a evil sadistic prick.
Think of it this way: People have been convinced that there's an invisible man up in the sky that watches everything you do and has a list of ten things that he doesn't want you to do. If you do any of these things on said list, he'll send you to a special place full of smoke and fire and burning and torture and anguish where you'll cry and shout and burn and suffer and choke and scream for ever and ever till the end of time itself.
But he loves you.
Believe what you want to believe. But I think this is the greatest bull$hit story ever told.

[Reikikuro]

Using Descartes theory on explaing that everything exists and using the loop hole in his theory (You cannot prove that good is indeed good) you could just deny the existence of everything including jesus

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I find a perfect being to be boring. He can't do anything wrong, unlike gods from a polytheistic religion.
[cynicism]
And if there is/are (a) god/dess((e)s), I think he/she/it/they is/are sitting back and watching us like a movie. Or maybe a video game. "Let's see what happens if we randomly screw up this person's neurotransmitters..." "Oh that wasn't very exciting. Let's try this guy called Hitler..."
[/cynicism]

*sings Monty Python* And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: I drink therefore I am *stops singing*

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I found this on Youtube, I figured it might be interesting for this topic....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E&NR=1

[Drake Dun]

Penn and Teller are cool. Once in a while they fly a little too far off the handle ("...push them down a flight of stairs"), but it's really nice to see that stuff like that has a place on T.V. It's the kind of stuff that has to overcome a bunch of invisible barriers just to be spoken and heard, but once it's heard... it's just so obvious that the walls start showing cracks very quickly.

Drake

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Shub-Yoggoth

I don't mean to cause a $hit storm, but I know they're isn't any invisible man up in the sky. I know that the story of Jebus was taken from the Zoroastrians. If this god does exist, he's been a sadistic SOB with drowning the Egyptians, wanting to fry Abe's kids and, what's worse, nailing his own son to a cross for what can only be described as a human sacrifice. I think that god is something humanity made up because A: The tribes were too lazy to worship more than one god and B: No god can be that much of a evil sadistic prick.
Think of it this way: People have been convinced that there's an invisible man up in the sky that watches everything you do and has a list of ten things that he doesn't want you to do. If you do any of these things on said list, he'll send you to a special place full of smoke and fire and burning and torture and anguish where you'll cry and shout and burn and suffer and choke and scream for ever and ever till the end of time itself.
But he loves you.
Believe what you want to believe. But I think this is the greatest bull$hit story ever told.

I am curious: have you ever read the New Testament? I don't mean open it up and read a page or paragraph, but read the whole thing?

If you do you will find that God isn't described as an "invisible man up in the sky" as you put it, but that He is in each of us. Do not take it literally, if you read it you will see there is much wisdom there to guide us and keep us from making a "shit storm" out of our lives. It is a guide for living, a template if you will. You are certainly entitled to your opnion, but I would think you would want it to be an informed opinion, not one arrived at with preconceived and inaccurate notions. Just try reading the first chapter, the Gospel of Matthew.
Then you can rest knowing your opinion is justified because you have read the actual documentation, not just repeating what others have mindlessly blathered about without knowing the subject they are expounding about.

[Romantic Raven]

Originally Posted by Shub-Yoggoth

I don't mean to cause a $hit storm, but I know they're isn't any invisible man up in the sky.

And I know that you can't spell to save your life. And regarding those things about God being sadistic and stuff, the Bible is full of metaphors, and I'm really sorry for you if you can't see the meaning behind them.

Oh, and before you get started on me, I'm not a hardcore Christian. I just hate it when people talk before (or instead of) thinking.

[bleedingheart344]

Shub-Yoggoth is just another example of one stupid atheist ruining it for the intelligent ones. I'm open to the ideas expressed in the bible, it has a deep philosophical and metaphorical meaning. Though that has been skewed over time. It's just not for me.

[JCC]

God was created by people who were terrified of death. All of the so-called power of the homo-sapien is demeaned when they can't rule the mortal coil. They can change the world, hurt the world, better the world, but they can never control the world, and as such are ruled by something beyond knowledge, and it's something unavoidable. So these necrophobes created a being that was omnipotent, the being that ruled the ruling force. This was the way of escaping death. And fear, as HP Lovecraft so amply put it, is the oldest and strongest emotion there is. And the greatest kind of fear? Fear of the UNKNOWN. Obviously, nobody's ever come back to tell us what it's like to be dead, so it's unknown. Fear drives people to crazy things, that's where the violence comes from.

[zeronegativeplus]

The problem here is that people calling themselves christians are not what they claim they are because they all have been fooled, we all have been fooled, it takes a lot of guts and a little bit of luck to be able to open your eyes.

Christ was not god nor a hundred per cent good and all light.

The Books in the new testament are a plagiarization of older manuscripts.

The first christians worshipped the snake symbol.

Salvation is the biggest lie someone has ever told.

Man can only be real through sin.
Without sin there is no real knowledge.

[JCC]

Without sin there is no real knowledge?

I don't need to go stab somebody to maintain a train of thought. Besides, if salvation is a lie, then sins are a lie. So what you're saying is that without breaking a bunch of fictitious rules, there can be no real knowledge. Which is ludicrous in itself.

[zeronegativeplus]

Originally Posted by JCC

Without sin there is no real knowledge?

I don't need to go stab somebody to maintain a train of thought. Besides, if salvation is a lie, then sins are a lie. So what you're saying is that without breaking a bunch of fictitious rules, there can be no real knowledge. Which is ludicrous in itself.

Sin is not a lie, sin is an honest way of life.

Being a sinner is accepting things as they are.

Besides how could anyone ever know himself by means of abstinence?

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by zeronegativeplus

Sin is not a lie, sin is an honest way of life.

While in the mind of a Christian, sin is impossible to avoid, one can still live an honest life in terms of living with others and with himself while avoiding conscious indulgence in "sin". I am a sinner. Yet I try not to lie to others and try to avoid lying to myself. Thus, I build up character, a reputation that I may be trusted with other's time, possessions, money, feelings etc. This happens because I live an honest life. Yet I do not need to kill someone, commit adultery (I have been faithful to my wife for 24 years, ever since the night we met), I do not need to steal, etc. So I would prefer to change your comment to "sin is a brutish way of life". Your original comment would logically mean that one may kill others, steal from others, hit on other's spouses and it would honest. I think your logic is in error there.

Originally Posted by zeronegativeplus

Being a sinner is accepting things as they are.

Being a sinner is accepting being uncivilized in regard to living with your fellow man. It also brings condemnation from others. So in turn it means being accepting of being ostracized. Are you prepared to accept that?

Originally Posted by zeronegativeplus

Besides how could anyone ever know himself by means of abstinence?

I know myself without having to kill, steal etc. Again, your logic is in need of some proof methinks.

[zeronegativeplus]

"While in the mind of a Christian, sin is impossible to avoid, one can still live an honest life in terms of living with others and with himself while avoiding conscious indulgence in "sin". I am a sinner. Yet I try not to lie to others and try to avoid lying to myself. "

No, you are failing to understand because you think in terms of the common crowd.

I am a thelemite, which means I follow one single code of conduct:

DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW.

This doesnt mean do whatever you want.
It means discover your true will and devote yourself to its accomplishment.

Also,

EVERY MAN AND EVERY WOMAN IS A STAR

Each star has its own orbit and if everybody knew their true will there would not be star clashes or any sort of conflict.

again

THOU HAST NO RIGHT THAN TO DO WHAT THOU WILT,
DO THAT AND NO OTHER SHALL SAY NAY.

As a thelemite I respect other people since, as I mentioned before, every man and every woman is a star, that is, each human being has to be honoured since he is divine in escence.

http://tim.maroney.org/CrowleyIntro/Texts/Duty.html

[Lapin]

My thoughts on Christianity are as addle-brained as my thoughts on anything else: Too many silly rules.

That's it. That's my whole problem with it. There are just so many of them. There's no way one person can stick to them all.

But just by saying that, I'm written off as simplistic and sinful by Christians. (Most of them) And they're probably right, unfortunately. But I like to be happy and left alone. Christianity likes to control every aspect of your life. Those two don't go together very well.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by zeronegativeplus

Salvation is the biggest lie someone has ever told.

Tell that to an alcoholic of 20 years that could not stop drinking until he became a Christian.

Tell that to a heroin addict who came close to death until he became a Christian.

Tell that to a married couple whose marriage was saved when they became Christians.

Tell that to a murderer on Death Row in prison.

In all of the above and in many more situations, suffering is reduced in people's lives thanks to salvation. It's effects are real, it's effects have changed lives for the better. It has transformed gang members, thieves, drug dealers, gambling addicts and countless others. That is fact, and is proved.

What facts or proofs do you present for your claim that salvation is a lie?
O_o

[Lapin]

I don't believe in godly salvation myself. I think people save themselves. They need something to believe in, something to lean on, so they choose a god to guide them.

Is it the god giving them salvation? I doubt it. I think the people just find purpose through the god and are able to give themselves the salvation they need.

[Wormboy]

I'm sure most people on this site by now know my position on religion, HOWEVER, I have to give some credit to it. Religion did start a lot of the best things in our culture (music), and some points of the bible are great, I believe the bible should be treated as a work of FICTION that tries to teach us a lesson in life.

[emeraldlonewoulf]

Thank you, HumanePain. Some days you are a breath of fresh air. It is heartening to see people like you who have faith, compassion, intelligence and sense. Rarely do those qualities seem to come in the same package.

[d.Nox]

Originally Posted by Lapin

I don't believe in godly salvation myself. I think people save themselves. They need something to believe in, something to lean on, so they choose a god to guide them.

Is it the god giving them salvation? I doubt it. I think the people just find purpose through the god and are able to give themselves the salvation they need.

In what way is this different from the god saving them? They can't do it without the god. If I'm drowning and someone throws me a rope, I pull myself in, and so save myself; but it's still correct to say that the rope saved me. Even if the god is just a pretty mental image, it's still what is needed to do the trick.

Also, while most of us have the option of choosing our gods (or not), many who report being "saved" are never aware of a choice. It's more that the gods choose them than the other way around.

[zeronegativeplus]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Tell that to an alcoholic of 20 years that could not stop drinking until he became a Christian.

Tell that to a heroin addict who came close to death until he became a Christian.

Tell that to a married couple whose marriage was saved when they became Christians.

Tell that to a murderer on Death Row in prison.

In all of the above and in many more situations, suffering is reduced in people's lives thanks to salvation. It's effects are real, it's effects have changed lives for the better. It has transformed gang members, thieves, drug dealers, gambling addicts and countless others. That is fact, and is proved.

What facts or proofs do you present for your claim that salvation is a lie?
O_o

Define "Salvation" please.

IT IS A LIE THIS FOLLY AGAINST SELF.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by zeronegativeplus

Define "Salvation" please.

IT IS A LIE THIS FOLLY AGAINST SELF.

So you can't provide any proof or fact that it is a lie can you?
In other words you cannot respond to my last comment? Capital letters do not comprise proof by the way.

Define Salvation? Easy for me: being saved from a life of suffering, of being tortured by the evil twins of demons and idols that are alcohol, gambling or substance addictions, of other behavior where self control fails to prevent one from "shooting oneself in the foot" and continuing placing one in misery.

So far I have provided answers, but I am still waiting for you to provide proof for your claims. It is beginning to sound like you cannot, in which case you believe in something without any backing, you believe in an "invisible claim" that you cannot prove, which makes you exactly what you started complaining about earlier in this thread. Your unsubstantiated belief has forsaken you.

[1 4m 4n 3gg ph34r m3]

allah wackbar

[honeythorn]

I am becoming increasingly interested in Asatru, and living life by the nine noble virtues . I need to read more before even thinking about beginning anything though

Here's some info on the nine noble virtues, see what you think.

http://www.webcom.com/~lstead/RBValues.html

[d.Nox]

Zeronegativeplus, perhaps you ought to think a bit more about the implications of your Thelemite philosophy before posting religious diatribes.

IF "every man and woman is a star," then throwing yourself against another's beliefs is denying your true "orbit" by beginning a conflict.

Further, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" describes (quoth Crowley) the law of the new Aeon; however, he also claimed that many will still be mastering the law of the old Aeon; it is unlawful for them to try to live the new law until they've done so. Christianity was part of the old law. (Crowley was a condescending bastard.)

IT IS A LIE THIS FOLLY AGAINST SELF.

Lies, quoth Crowley further, are the truth.