Muslims and Middle Eastern Debate

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

I Bought a gram of Afghan hash today for 6 EUR (about the same in USD).

Fuck that shit. It was worth about 4 decent joints, and I want those 6 bucks to go where they rightfully belong (the people who grew it and made it as opposed to the same greedy intermediary bunch).

And let them pay taxes for it. And let them get farm subsidies (Oh, but if they wanted, they could grow food instead. In Afghanistan? How about corn or wheat, while we're at it? No. Better yet: rice!)
At least they fucking grow something, unlike places like all those off-shore tax break corporate paradises.

What's the deal with the US opposing a proper free market? Oh, yeah, Phillip Morris and a few other fat cats would simply go bankrupt and the pharmaceutical companies would have to start paying proper money for proper substances, instead of buying confiscated shit from the DEAL (oops, I meant to say the DEA), as well as the military-industrial apparattus losing one of their arguements to push their crap on the federal budget..., and so on....

Ever seen a crack baby? Or a child whose parent or parents either did meth while the child was in the womb or subjected them to the second hand smoke? Or the lifestyle of the parents whacked out of their head, most times leaving the kid malnourished and uncared for?

Not so glamorous.

I frankly don't care if people want to fuck themselves up, but they cannot do it without dragging down others around them. If not on a personal or criminal level, they sure as shit drain our hard earned tax dollars.

[Binkie]

There are quite a few floating around (from independant sources):

Article on Legalizing Poppy Production

Going from Poppies to industrial Hemp

The method the Afghan government is working with right now is to wean farmers off of growing poppies by means of federal programs (like the USDA) and financial support in growing other produce. Basically the core problem is the infrustructure. The economy needs to be built back up, which takes time. Even adopting one of these programs would take time. This is why I roll my eyes when people like Sternn jump up and down and say, "Fix the problem NOW!! Fix it NOW!!!"

And on the topic of Schiavo, it's better that thing ended. It was more of you and I going after each other's throats than a dicussion. That, and personal shit got in the way of my points. :P

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Merci.

(Je pense que, si je penserai en francais, je dois faire semblance d'etre francaise.)

"The method the Afghan government is working with right now is to wean farmers off of growing poppies by means of federal programs (like the USDA) and financial support in growing other produce. Basically the core problem is the infrustructure. The economy needs to be built back up, which takes time."

Bon!

[Binkie]

En effet.

[CptSternn]

OH, the coffe house. Tis by no means some starbucks if thats what your implying. I'll snap a few pix so you can see it. Think pub with no beer, as thats what we call it here. And they only have 2 typesof coffee, regular and decaf. Did I also mention coffee here is mostly ALL instant (not even brewed as thats nots the style here). So by no means 'upscale'. Tis where the builders (what we call construction workers) stop by in the morning for egg sandiwches, a few bangers and cheap coffee.

But back to the topic. Al - this is scary but I'm righton track with you. My first fiancee and I called off our wedding and broke up once she went back to herion rehab, for the third time. I've seen the worst parts of it destory the girl I was going to spend my life with so I know about it first hand (shes on my site - look under the richmond pix - the blondie one in the chains).

My point is Afghanistan wasn't all that bad until bush went and fucked it up. Hell, I watched Rambo 3 last night and thought how ironic it was. Rambo teams up with the Taliban and the Mujahadeen to fight the commies. The whole movie pumps the whole 'afghans fight till the death' and 'no one can conqour the afghan people'. They also go into how Ghengis Khan, then the British, then the soviets tried to take over, and all failed in their own 'vietnam style defeat' (these are movie quotes). Rambo goes into a whole tiree on how he 'feels the afghan plight' and why cant countries just 'keep their hands off your proud people'. Tis really worth the watch again as they talk about how dedicated the mujahadeen are and rambo says 'glad we dont have to fight you'.

Slán

[CptSternn]

WASHINGTON — A military investigation has found that U.S. troops mishandled Korans of Muslim prisoners five times at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but found "no credible evidence" to support a detainee's claim that a holy book was flushed down a toilet, the prison's commander said Thursday.

The investigation looked into 13 allegations that the book had been treated improperly, and it determined that five incidents "could be broadly defined as mishandling" of a Koran, Army Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the Guantanamo prison commander, told reporters at the Pentagon. Two people have been punished in connection with two incidents, said Hood, who was in charge of the inquiry.

Hood's comments were the most detailed account to date of allegations that military guards and interrogators at the prison had mishandled Islam's holy book. The investigation is continuing.

Pentagon officials said international furor over an allegation published in Newsweek that a guard had flushed a Koran down a toilet prompted them to brief reporters about the interim findings. The magazine report about the treatment of the Koran was widely blamed for touching off deadly riots in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Newsweek retracted the report one week after publishing it.

An FBI report released Wednesday summarized one detainee's account of the incident in two interviews conducted in July 2002. (The report was released because of a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union that sought to shed light on U.S. treatment of prisoners in Cuba.)

The guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," the detainee alleged, according to the FBI report. "The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things."

That account differed from what the detainee told military investigators, Hood said.

Although the prisoner was never asked about the incident cited in the FBI document, Hood said, he was asked whether "he had seen the Koran defiled, desecrated or mishandled, and he allowed as how he hadn't. But he had heard guards — that guards at some other point in time had done this.

"I do not believe [the military investigators] used that word, 'toilet,'" Hood said.

He said he could not explain why the detainee had told different stories to investigators from the military and the FBI, but he indicated that the wording might have been inexact.

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence DiRita said investigative accounts often amount to "second- and third-hand reports of hearsay."

Hood declined to discuss specific incidents of alleged Koran desecration before completing the investigation. He also refused to detail how the two people were punished except to say that one had been reassigned.

Over the last 12 days, investigators reviewed 31,000 documents dating back three years, Hood said. They found 13 allegations that the Koran had been mishandled by U.S. troops.

In addition to finding the five incidents in which the Koran was mishandled, he said, the investigation found in six incidents that guards touched the holy book by accident or within the scope of their duties — instances that were not considered abuse — or did not touch it at all. In a 12th incident, an interrogator placed two Korans on a television set, which the Pentagon considered acceptable, and in a 13th, an interrogator stood over a Koran while questioning a detainee, which the investigators said was an accident.

Investigators found no pattern in the mishandling of the Korans, Hood said.

Of the five substantiated incidents of mishandling the book, four occurred before the military established guidelines for handling the Koran. Those rules were set out by Army Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller in January 2003 after the Red Cross alleged that soldiers were abusing the Koran. Miller was then commander of the prison at Guantanamo Bay.

In essence, those written guidelines say the books are generally to be handled only by Muslim chaplains working for the military, and guards are instructed not to touch the Koran unless absolutely necessary.

Muslims have rules for handling the Koran, which is revered as the word of God. Some Muslims hold that nonbelievers must not touch the holy book.

Hood's report also found 15 cases in which detainees — as opposed to military personnel — mishandled the Koran, in one case ripping out pages.

"This is not a benign group of people," Hood said. "These are enemy combatants that are detained because they represent a clear threat and danger to the United States and our allies."

The Pentagon is conducting a separate internal investigation of reported abuses at the Guantanamo detention facility, led by Air Force Lt. Gen. Randall Schmidt. The administration has refused to say what that inquiry has found so far.

Whether accurate or not, the published allegation that a Koran had been flushed down a toilet has taken on a life of its own.

Gen. John P. Abizaid, who, as head of the U.S. Central Command, directs the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, said in a recent interview with several reporters at the Pentagon that the Newsweek item had come at a critical time.

"I think it was a story that was exploited by many of the political groupings and insurgent actors on both sides of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border for their own political aims," Abizaid said. "And so it came at a time when, I thought, probably the political constellations were about ripe to start something."

One lawyer who has interviewed detainees at Guantanamo said a detainee told him that allegations of Koran mishandling had led to two hunger strikes there.

According to the lawyer, one detainee said he was taking part in a hunger strike because a Koran had fallen into a toilet while a detainee was being shackled.

The lawyer said it was not clear whether the Koran was deliberately put in the toilet or accidentally knocked in.

The attorney, who said the detainees told one another about the incident, said his confidence in the detainee's story was "very high." The attorney spoke on condition of anonymity because of lawyer-client privilege and because he said he was concerned that the volatile issue could affect his position or access to clients.

A second hunger strike began after a detainee found a profane phrase written on his Koran when he returned to his cell, the detainee said, according to the lawyer.


----------------


You were right binkster- it wasn't flushed however the mistreatment is just as bad. If you speak with any Muslim they can tell you. To say one mistreatment is less offensive than the other to them is like asking where would you rather be shot - left foot or right ankle.

Slán

[MrMaelstrom]

Are we reduced to arguing over this?

Bring me a King James bible, an arabic koran and the hebrew Torah, and I'll wipe my arse with one, wipe the come off my dick with another and roll a joint with the remaining one.

I'll leave it up to you to determine which should I use for what and who should get upset over what.

Ahmed got buttfucked yesterday with a military baton while kneeling for 8 hours straight. He has been detained without legal counsel and is yet to be charged with any crime other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time (meaning he pissed off another muslim who dobbed him in for probably no reason), but never mind that now, 'CAUSE SOMEONE FLUSHED GOD'S HOLY MESSAGE DOWN THE CRAPPER!! ARE YOU GUYS FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Sternn: don't nitpick, go for the fucking jugular and quit nibbling about the ankles.

[CptSternn]

Mael - You obvoiusly don't know many Muslims. They view each Koran as an actual part of god. Before handling it, they wash their hands (hell, most people don't even wash their hands before they eat anymore, much less before handling a book). They also wrap it in clean cloths before putting it away. They also cannot put it near things like TV's or radios, things that give off radio wave and what not because they are unclean. They take the handling of this book VERY seriously.

You burn a bible in front of a Christian, most might get a bit upset, but thats it. In the Muslim religion, imporper handling of the Koran is tandamount to slapping ones mother in the face.

Slán

[Binkie]

It's ok if you like your lattes at upscale coffee shops. There are quite a few goths that do the same thing as you. No need to be ashamed of it, wee willy.

Again, the statement: "Afghanistan wasn't all that bad until bush went and fucked it up," shows just how naive you are. This little childish personal vendetta with Bush and you losing your expensive little hot wheels cars (another tear in the bucket) has clouded the ability for you to understand what reality actually is. Go do some research on human rights there durring Taliban rule, or since you can't read, go talk with a "refugee."

With drugs, all do you do is look at some pie chart and think, "Wow, look at the production of oppium durring that last year of the Taliban rule! Man, things were grand then!" Why don't you actually talk to one of your Afghan friends and ask them what life was like that last year. Better yet, go find an oppium farmer that was cut off. Good luck, cause most of them ended up starving to death cause they had nothing else to grow and no other source of income other than smuggling weapons.

Is this what you condone? The starvation of the Afghan people? Is this what you see as the brilliant solution to the oppium problem? Just starve off all the citizens that farm it? Sorry, most of the international community and Afghan government don't share your sick and twisted approach to the problem. They're not just a bunch of selfish pigs that care only about the international community.

And also, Rambo didn't fight with the Taliban in Rambo III. I dont' know where you got that from. Maybe you can't differentiate them from the Mujahadeen, which is again, why you shouldn't even be talking about thsi stuff cause you have no clue. And the analogy you're trying to make is funny, cause the Afghans are ruling themselves right now with their own government. They voted for who they wanted in office and they elected a former Taliban member who's family was killed by that regime has has vowed since the late 90s to bring justice back to Afghanistan.

Again, time apparently means nothing to you. The Afghan people need it before they can work on pushing the reliance on foreign aid back.

[Binkie]

Mod(s),
you guys know I don't back-seat moderate and try not to, but could someone merge this with the Afghanistan thread, as part of the original topic of that thread was the Qur'an story? This will help cut down on the ammount of threads that have useless bickering on them.

:wink:

And as for the mishandling of the Qur'an, they touched the book several times and placed it on top of a TV. That's just as bad as flushing it down the toilet? You honestly believe that? Oh wait, did you actually read the news article? I know how much you're against reading and all that. I need to make sure you actually read more than just the header.

Mishandlings are not abuses in the same sense. Most of these cases were accidents. People love to misunderstand situations. I find it funny too, cause at Guantonomo, detainees are given a copy of the Qur'an, but not only that, they're also given a delicate white cloth to wrap the Qur'an up in so it doesn't get scratched or dirty. Yep, sounds like their religion is purposely disrespected there..

I wonder whatever happened to the detainee that was found ripping pages out of his book? Or the guy that dropped his copy of the Qur'an on the floor, but was so humiliiated by that that he blamed it on a guard (which was proven wrong in several reports). No one was angry at him, huh?

[MrMaelstrom]

Let's see: UN and US "commitee" special reports, special comitte reports or whatever vs. accounts by real Afghans?

Sorry, no contest there. I'm pretty sure the USA had all sorts of commitees to justify their attempted liberation of Indochina (Vietnam). And even if they didn't. That person didn't just land there out of nowhere with it's sets of ideas and preconceptions on how things are and how they should be.
I'd rather hear the words of someone FROM there, who LIVED, FOUGHT and SURVIVED there, who knows what it WAS like, who knows how it IS (hence fleing).

Sorry Binks, but your arguement there came out like the doctor saying that I can't possibly be in pain because HE couldn't find anything.

Anyways, bought some more afghan hash today (something they're incredibly good at with a tradition of cultivation and manufacture over 2000 years old), but you think they should replace that and the poppies for sterilized Hemp (basically marijuana that won't get you high)?

And why the fuck should they?

Hey Al, you wanna compare the number of crack babies with the number of abortions and birth defects from alcoholism?

And the death toll on the roads on account of alcohol vs drug related deaths?

Crime? Organized crime? I believe you had that during the prohibition, with people like Al Capone (lotta Al's, innit?) and a few others being more famous after all this time that Pablo Escobar ever will.

What stopped organized crime? Liberation.

Do you still have alcohol related deaths? sure, but I bet that your society as a whole deals with it a lot better than OTHER drugs, because they can easily talk about it, learn about it and seek help for it in today's society without feeling like pariahs.

Why? Society's puritan perception of spirits changed with legalization, as would with anything.

And if those crackheads could never had access to illegal drugs, they'd be alcoholics today, as the addiction for that kind of people is more inside their self-destructive instincts and ignorance than the power of the substance. There is a big difference between drug use and abuse.

No one in their right mind downs a double scotch before driving. Alcoholics do.

Heroin is derived from morphine, which is synthetized opium. An incredibly large percentage of medical doctors are quite addicted to morphine, in case you didn't know. But they have easy and cheap access to the good undiluted stuff. You'll never see them suffer from lack of appetite, money or health, as they don't have to shoot a minimum 92% of shit into their veins to satisfy their "hunger" (you shoot heroin into your veins with a purity of over 8% and you DIE).

People should be properly educated on the use and effects on all kinds of substances that alter your mind, body, or your perception of the "real" world (cigarettes, tea, coffee, alcohol, cannabis, cocaine, etc.) from a young age. People need to pay taxes for it and there needs to be some kind of quality control (so that junkies and 1st timers alike won't die again from shooting plaster powder into their veins).

Sorry for ranting, but this subject is very personal to me, as I hate being treated they way I am when someone in this backwards country of die-hard alcoholics finds I do DRUGS (that I pay for with MY money).

[CptSternn]

Binkster - you really think that these refugees are just sitting back sipping lattes in Ireland?

Let me tell you the story of one man and his family I know and work with. His name isnt important, but I think when I was high i might have already posted it somewhere.

He was in bed when he awoke and couldnt hear anything. He was dazed, and felt he was still asleep. But no such luck. One of those 'smart bombs' (actually a few) rained down on the small town he was living in. The americans called it 'friendly fire' - but there was nothing friendly about it. He lost his little sister, his mother, and his uncle. Down the footpath to his othe uncles house he lost a few cousins who also had bombs fall on their homes.

Long story short, the us gave him $400 for the death of his sister and $400 for his mother, quite cheap for taking the life of someones mother dont you think (how much is your mother and sibling worth to you? The price of a cheap tv?). Not only that, he was told him and his family could never go to america. See, the us has a policy on not letting in victims of their war effort - they feel that he could become a terrorist since he *might* be angry about his family getting murdered by the us troops and all. So they told him not to try. Heres your $800, now fuck off, find a new home, and oh yeah - dont bother trying to come to our country because we dont want you. Happy liberation! We are on your side remember!

I live near the local refugee center. Years ago all we saw was vicitims of african civil war. Now, all we see is people from countries bush is bombing. Coming in, dressed in rags, with no money to feed their families. Many disfigured and missing limbs from 'smart bombs'. I see them daily when they come to register. Things the american public never sees as these people although their lives were literally destroyed by the americans, come to my country for support and to live as they are denied access into america, a country that claims it destroyed their lives to save them, but then in the same breath tells them they want nothing to do with them. My country, and my taxes, go to support these people, people unless you leave your ivory tower in the states will never be able to even catch a glimpse of.

I mean, do you really believe they sit around sipping lattees?

Mael - start a drug topic so we can continue on with your discussion cuz i like where its going!

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

My point is Afghanistan wasn't all that bad until bush went and fucked it up.

Jane (or anyone under 18 ) please don't click that link.

Anyone who believes the above statement, you deserve to see that.

[CptSternn]

This isnt an afghanistan topic. Your reply shows a few things here:

1. Your ignorance on the Muslim faith. The contridictory statement you make, first claiming placing it on a TV is no big deal, but yet then stating that an inamte was 'humiliated' when merely dropping the book. I assure you, they take it seriously. Visit your local mosque and ask them for yourself.

2. The fact you don't understand their determination. I mean, hell, Christians made a film that showed a possessed girl maserbating with a crucafix, and yes they complained, but that was it. Still a best seller and money maker to this day. A guy writes a book condeming Islam and half the planet goes into war mode to hunt him down (remember the Satanic Verses). They take their religion VERY seriously. I think suicide bombers alone should pretty much tell you how serious they are when it comes to religion.

Just because it seems trivial to you doesn't mean its trivial. Try killing a cow in India and see how far you get. Just because you think its hogwash doesn't make it any less important to the people who dedicate their lives to it.

This is a common misconception about their faith, which is why they will kick the crap out of invading forces, as their war IS a Holy War, and they have no choice but to win or die trying. It's not like they can pull back to their country and hide - as its the us forces that are in their homeland, desecrating their religion. To quote a common us term, they cant punt and hope for the best. It's win or die trying for them, and they are willing to kill themselves with suicide blasts to show you.

Until americans can wrap their minds around this concept, they have no hope of ever winning any major battles against them. Sad thing is, in america, the elections can be rigged, people can be executed and then found innocent, drugs can be smuggled in by the CIA, and as long as it doesnt effect their lifestyle directly they wont get up off their couch to do anything. A lifestyle without true meaning or purpose and definately lacking the dedication of their new adversary.

Slán

[MrMaelstrom]

Good point Al. And then there's the standing Buddahs being blown to smithereens....

But both of those events happened after the US gave the taliban a few millions for "getting rid" of crops, so the "after Bush" thingy, albeit treading on extremely thin ice, is still somewhat valid.

But Al, I really am not confident about a real betterment of living conditions in areas unpatrolled by outside forces (which are little more than limited to Kabul city).

I'ml pretty sure there's still a few hundreds of thousands of afghan refugees camped out in barren wastelands all over the pakistani border.

The drug issue is one of my biggest problems with the US in its role as a global policy maker (in practical terms and not officially, of course), but still, it's 6am here and I wouldn't even know where to begin a new thread.

But if I did, the US wouldn't differ much from everywhere else when it comes to drug use. Viva Holland.

Hail Morrocco, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt and Turkey and many more for their Hash.

Hail Thailand, Indonesia, Brazil, Angola, Mozambique, Mexico, British Columbia and many more for their grass.

Hail the whole of South America for the marching powder (not a habit of mine, but it's still the best thing for when you need to sober up pronto).

Oh, and thank China, Burma, Laos and Birmânia for their most excellent opium (a rare and expensive delicacy, but if you chased the dragon before, try riding him, for a change). Don't ask me how to get some in the US, but if I were you, I'd become good friends with the locals in a Chinatown near you, as they ALWAYS have some for their old-timers.

[Binkie]

I'm saying you're sitting on your ass sipping lattes in Ireland, which kind of negates your entire arguement. I see you stopped touching on the drug ordeal as well. Just wave a white flag next time so I don't have to skim over so much off-topic blabbering.

[Binkie]

It isn't, but it belongs in that thread, as that thread was started with the same topic. Maybe you should have Darren delete the other thread so you can start the arguement all over again.

1.) The Muslim understands whats happening when the book gets knocked over, the soldier doesn't. Understand the difference in context.

2.) Mmmhmm.. there are no Christian fanaticals? It's not like genocide happens in Northern Africa at all between Christians and Muslims. Send a muslim into a Christian neighborhood over there and tell him to burn a bible. He probably won't be coming home that night. So don't try to downplay Christians like they're pussycats. Religions of all kinds will have their violent fanatics.

There's a difference between intentional desecration and accidental. Ignorance is no excuse, but again, these two things exist in two entirely different contexts. Again, look at the example of the soldier accidently touching a book and a muslim dropping one, himself. Anger towards "mishandling" is apparently selective in this case. The detainee is off the hook but the soldier... for shame.

And on a sidenote, I find this remark rather funny: "Until americans can wrap their minds around this concept, they have no hope of ever winning any major battles against them"

Them? Are you refering to Muslims in general as though to say we are at war with Muslims, period?

[MrMaelstrom]

Hey, I resent that. There was nothing wrong with my blabbering... :evil:

:wink:

[CptSternn]

White flag? Thats your reponse? You call that number? Hell, even Mael agrees with me on the point I'm making here and you are saying you are winning? Umm..how?

If you think Ireland is all upscale anything, you have never been here. The reason I use the internet cafe is that they don't have PHONE LINES in most of the area here. Indoor plumbing is also a luxurty in some of the surrounding areas. Hell, we don't even have hot water heaters - we have immersions we must turn on a few hours before we take our showers, which has to be turned on at the pump to send the water to the shower. Mael can probably tell you the same as most of Europe doesn't have most of the 'luxuries' you have there in the states.

But lets get back to the topic - not my life in Ireland, how about the refugees here? I work along side them as well as help out at the refugee shelter from time to time. SF does much community work here, which is another reason we are so popular. In fact as mass today I was at the shelter and they gave me this link for you to check out. Let me know what you think about it. Talks about all the civilians you support murdering right now. Also talks about how the us government is trying to hide these stats and the people effected.

The us has 'accidentally' killed more civilians in Afghanistan that have been killed in 9/11, columbine, and the past 2 decades of all national tragedies in the states added together. So how do you justify this? I mean, you can't say its for the quality of life, as I can get you more numbers, or have a few by the phone, you can talk to who just left there if you want first hand accounts.

The things your stats and figures you find online dont show you is pickup trucks hauling off pieces of children, mothers, sisters, and sons that the us troops have bombed. It doesnt show chlidren who were 'caught in friendly fire' when troops open up in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Ever notice the us media NEVER says 3 insurgents, and a dozen civilians killed today by us troops? How is it thousands die, hundred by the week, confirmed by the us military as civilians, but yet it doesn't even get a mention in the us national media? We get the straight news along with the graphic pictures here in Europe.

It's alot like the Passion Of The Christ. People complaining it was too gruesome and gorey. But guess what? Crucifixion IS fecking gruesome, gorey, and appaling. Writing the word doesn't give a good image of what happened. You can read the word...crucifixion...but then show someone that 30 minute scene from the movie that SHOWS it and see if their reaction changes.

Same goes with these figures and facts you find online. You can spew em out all day. Until you go and sit with these people, not the numbers they are represented by, see their children, missing limbs. See women missing their face with a hunk of flesh that was medically alters to allow her to breath where he nose used to be before a us bomb dropped in her bedroom one nite, well your not getting the full picture.

To sit half a world away in a country that actively hides these images and makes sure these people never make it to their shores to tell their tales leaves you with a very one sided and very skewed view, which is why I pity you more than feel any anger.

I would pay money, hell, buy a ticket for youcome come here for a few days JUST to sit with one of these families and talk with them. If you could then say the same things you claim you support now, well, I'd be quite impressed.

Oh and for the discussion, another great piece from the front of the LA Times today...

The Lure of Opium Wealth Is a Potent Force in Afghanistan

http://news.**********/s/latimests/20...FjBHNlYwN0cw--

Three and a half years after the United States led an invasion of Afghanistan to oust the Taliban regime, the United Nations and the U.S. government warn that the country is in danger of becoming a narco-state controlled by traffickers. The State Department recently called the Afghan drug trade "an enormous threat to world stability." The United Nations estimates that Afghanistan produces 87% of the world's opium.

For decades, poor farmers trying to make a living in Afghanistan's mountain valleys have harvested the opium poppies that feed the world's drug pipeline. Now the trade is booming, partly the result of the U.S. strategy for overthrowing the Taliban and stabilizing the country after two decades of war.

U.S. troops forged alliances with warlords, who provided ground forces in the battle against the Taliban. Some of those allies are suspected of being among Afghanistan's biggest drug traffickers, controlling networks that include producers, criminal gangs and even members of the counter-narcotics police force. They are willing to make deals with remnants of the Taliban if the price is right....


-------

The irony being now, the Taliban who once kept the drug world at bay is now selling the drugs and using the money to support their rebels. Also the northern alliance and the other warlords are hiding the taliban members, producing opium, and at the same time being paid by us tax dollars to stop both. Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop.


Slán

[CptSternn]

Yes, I agree that tere are Christian fanatics, I mean, look at gw. However, 99% of them, especially all those in the states, aren't going to raise one fat finger to fight for their religion. They never have, and never will.

Also, the statement you find humorous is EXACLTY what I meant it to say. America IS in a Holy War against all Muslims. You might *try* to argue this but look at the facts here:

1. Bush has been quoted on more than one occasion as saying he is doing 'Gods work'. Which God is he refering to? If he is doint Gods work and is being a good Christian (as he claims he is by stopping abortion, stem cell research, etc), then he has an active Christian agenda, which directly conflicts with many Muslim beliefs (although the aforementioned ones are actuallu parallel).

2. By using their religion as a 'tool' in interogation shows they have not only a lack of concept, but also no reverence to the Muslim religion. The whole 'its war' justification does not exempt them from the fact they don't hold the Muslim relgion with any regard. They don't even have a basic understanding as half the aformentioned cases were accidents and the guards had no idea they were comitting a sin. Their total lack of knowledge and lack of desire to learn more about the religion because they have their own which they believe is the right one (or are just aethists), shows a direct attack on the Muslim religion.

3. By trying to implement new ways of life that directly contridict those set forth in the Koran. Women must wear burkas. Thats Muslim law written in their God's words. To try and 'give' women the 'freedom' to do something else is a direct conflict with their religion. Note that they never complained about it, and most STILL wear burkas because they practice their religion, no matter what happens. The fact the us is trying to change that, along with many other tenents of their religon that is written in their God's own words is a direct attack on their religion.

4. By trying to now teach them the tenants of the Christian religion and bring in new religion to the region is a direct attack on them as well. All the new 'missionaries' which mainly are prodestant that guise themselves as aid organisations and give out free food only when the people come to a sermon (google for a few stories on this) is a direct attack on their religion. Since its all happening within the military bases under the watchful eye of soldiers and being paid for with us tax dollars, you can bet its another attack on the Muslim faith.

Thats just the ones off the top of my head. Once again to quote myself, if you can't wrap your mind around this concept and get to know what your up against, the us is destined to fail. I mean, look at the british empire. Once the largest, then started with the whole colonisation thing and what beat them in the end? Religious groups in Iran, Iraq, India, and Ireland. To think some country thats only 200 years old, pretty green by most standards, is going to be able to handle and contain peoples who have existed in their own social structure, their own religion, their own laws for centuries before the us and even Christianity existed because they feel their way of life is better, well thats just ignorant.

As we say here in Ireland - you can kill a man, but you can't kill what he believes in. The cause will go on even if all of us fall, as the next generation will rise up to meet the challenge.

Slán gó foíl

[Binkie]

How? Well, let's see... you negated to stay on topic. You went onto some other tirade about lattes. Once you jump to a new discussion, it's obvious you've been fried on the previous one.

I find your wild claims a little hard to believe that Afghan refugees with nothing more than rags on their back managed to pay for transportation all the way to Northern Ireland. Don't know if you got the memo, but Northern Ireland isn't a major refugee rally point for Afghans, especially dirt poor Afghans. Again, if you want to argue, provide stories that have something back them up. When you pull shit out of your ass, you've again, lost the arguement.

I think I've already mentioned that I'm not wasting anymore time on your made-up, hard to swallow bullshit. None of your silly make-believe stories have anything to back them up. None of your ex-Iraqi friends that supposedly read my posts will ever sign up for the boards. Any shred of proof that you were in the military will ever surface. Your entire life and arguments are a gigantic lie.

As for your aticles, find something that hasn't been known before. "Tis' old news here, mate." 'Cept for the part about the Northern Alliance hiding Taliban members. You have nothing on your side to suggest that. You just made it up.

Go find out how brutal the Taliban were and what human rights abuses were like there. Nevermind, that would require reading. You apparently can't read. Oh well.

[Binkie]

Christian fanatics in the states don't hold a candle to the IRA though and all those silly Catholic goof-balls in Northern Ireland. Send in a Muslim with a burning bible to an IRA meeting. Guy would be buried in a field somewhere by those loons. Wait, he doesn't even need to have a burning bible for that to happen.

You're an idiot if you think we're against muslims. One of our most powerful ally in the Middle East happens to be the most conservative muslim nation. I've posted articles before on this site where Iraqi clerics have come to the states and praised W and America. In your one sided little world though, all you'll ever hear about is the anti-American business. That's fine. Again, this is why you can try to get involved in politics all you want, but you'll never stand a chance of getting elected into office of any sort. You fail to understand the situation again and again. So keep those paintball guns handy.

1.) You understand that God and Allah are the same, right? "Allah" is just the Arabic name for God. Arab Christians use the term "Allah" to refer to "God."

2.) Ignorance is not an offensive position unless you make it into one. If it is, you do a great job of it. Your ignorant of many facets of American culture and the government that are flattering. You fail to identify them, and I believe that's on purpose. With others though, some people truely don't know any better and it's forgivable because they can be taught that it exists so that they can grow and not repeat their mistakes. You, as well as many extremists in Europe, just don't want to see it. That's when ignorance is an attack on others.

3.) Not all muslim women follow that law. It's a free world. No all people who grow up learning the Christian religion end up following that religion at all. You saying that Muslims should not be allowed to shrug their religion off if they want to? I guess your stance is that which is in opposition of basic human freedom? It's a person's choice as of how they live their lives, not that of their religion.

4.) Believe it or not, Christians have been in the Middle East for a while now. But they shouldn't be allowed to live in free countries, is that what you're saying? That's what Iraq and Afghanistan both are today, Wee Willy. Democratic nations that encompass all peoples of any religion, race, or creed. If they shouldn't be allowed to convert people in those nations, well hell, Muslims shouldn't be allowed to convert people here in the states. In fact, I think Muslims are trying to destroy the Christian religion by entering the US and doing so. So I guess if that were the case, it's justified, eh? They attacked us, we then attacked them?

The Irish must have been refering to William Wallace, who strove for freedom. This is why your insurgents will fail in Iraq and Afghanistan. They're not fighting Christians as much as they're fighting freedom and change. This is why they've attacked the society of muslims in these countries that have embraced it. In fact, insurgents there have killed more innocent Muslims than they have Americans.

[edible_eye]

this whole story is a game of smoke and mirrors.

the u.s. haters inside the country are all up in arms about this, blowing it way out of proportion and fueling the fires of people in the middle east who hate us already. and really - it's asinine.

this is the WORST the world can throw at us? this is the WORST the detainees can come up with? ooh, five incidents that "could be broadly defined as mishandling" a koran. terrorist suspects in prison whining and complaining about something "broadly defined"? these guys are more pussyesque than i originally believed. did they cry - waaaah, waaah, waaaah?

it's too bad they haven't been given a choice , like having their teeth yanked out of their skulls with a pair of pliers or having their koran broadly mishandled? american troops are already dancing around these motherfuckers to show respect, and for what? these same cocksuckers wouldn't think twice about killing our boys and girls if the shoe was on the other foot - and they're complaining about their friggin' book?

if these detainees represent the toughest and baddest of the muslim religion, then muslims are obviously a bunch of pussies.

[MrMaelstrom]

Your post came really close to being censored by me on account of that last phrase E_E. Have some respect. Many of your soldiers are Muslim, as were a few of the police officers who died in the WTC attack.

I won't stand for this at all.

And for the record, most of these detainees are people rounded up when an area is occupied bi coalition forces. When Aziz sees he's gonna get killed, he throws down the weapon and hides among the families. When the coalition forces enter the place, not only will they take Aziz into custody, but they'll take Ahmed as well, who did nothing but stay home and try to protect his family. If you're gonna argue that they shouldn't have given Aziz shelter, think about what would happen to the family once the coalition forces left.

Many others are "given up" by other muslims. What happens is that rag-poor people who covet their neighbours land can just take over it this way, seen as women cannot do more than WORK the farm, not own it.

And by Guantanamo standards, not only has he not been given any decent treatment as a prisoner of war, on account of being considered terrorists (even in Ahmed's case).

They were not charged with any crime and are being kept from everyone they hold dear. Who is looking after their families back home? The coalition? The neighbours who sold them out? I don't think so.

There needs to be any complaint about koran uses or abuses. The whole situation in Guantanamo is nothing short of fascist for a country who boats to be the worlds greatest democracy.
It's a slap on liberty's face.


THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. If you become a murderer in order to retribute being attacked, then what are you fighting for?

If in order to exact your revenge you have to do all the atrocities that deny the very essence of being american, then there will be no more america to defend.

You see, I'm not opposing america, I'm really trying to make you remember what america is about, because the terrorists have been winning with every attack you make, with every innocent you detain. You're sowing the seeds of hate, traumatizing another generation of young idealist soldiers who know not what they are fighting for.

They are more and more demoralized and this leads to their treatment of any Iraqui suffering from it.

Men who risked their lives for what they were told would be a short tour of duty and are being called to arms again is an insult to every man who holds his freedom dear.

No matter how much you try and convince yourselves, you're making enemies and losing supporters EVERYWHERE.

Bush's softening of his speeches on foreign policies have not had any real effect in practical terms.

Like David Bowie sang a long time ago: this is not America!

Still, E_E, I'm more disapointed and saddened than really shocked. I expected more out of you than this easy rethoric.

In fact, long after any outside forces leave, they'll still be there to fight attackers. They kicked british arse during the british empire, kicked soviet arse during the 80's and the Muhajedin will be around for long, for they live in clans and will never give up their arms.

Do I agree with them? No, but I know how NOT to fight them. In case you don't know, the USAF carpet-bombed a whole village in Afghanistan because they fired shots in the air as a drone flew overhead. Works out they were having a wedding and celebratng in the usual manner.

Not a single family in the whole village walked away without losing one or more members. Oh, and the bride and grooms family were all but wiped out (bride and groom included).

Do you think there is anything at all that can be said to those families? I'd shoot the 1st fucker who ever came to my village. I'd do like they were done to: Shoot 1st and ask questions later (if there are any survivors).

Is your way of life worth all this?

Mine isn't and I'll never be afraid or ashamed to admit it.



Just like decent catholics in Ireland and decent Basques in Spain say: NOT IN MY NAME!!!

Slaughter all you want, but not in my name.

Really!....

[edible_eye]

censor me if you wish, maelstrom. it's all good.

my respect absolutely goes to the men and women who wear the uniform of the united states. muslims in our army are american muslims and as long as they stay true to the american way of life, they have my respect. the same goes for any branch of religion, any race, any whatever. i don't need to respect the middle eastern way of life, nor do i need to respect the muslim way of life in the middle east. feign respect for them all you wish but the bottom line is - if it comes down to you (universal) versus them, you'll side with your own.

as an aside, one of the police officers who died in the world trade center was a friend of mine. no need to worry about my respect for the men in uniform who risked everything when those planes hit - those hijacking cowards and motherfuckers, every single one of them was responsible for his death. my friend was found with a group of 4 other officers and a woman they'd been trying to save beneath a stairwell that hadn't collapsed. they were in a group and they'd obviously gathered together trying to get her out. all dead. he'd been in the basement when the planes hit. his wife told me she'd been on the phone with him until he reached the 9th floor. that was when his cell phone cut out. have some respect? heh. you have no idea.

as for those rounded up - hey, guess what? this is a war. people are taken prisoner. people are detained. it also happens with the civilian contractors as well as military personnel from the coalition - on their side. different fate that befalls them, though - huh? that's all right. let's focus on the fact that a few detainees complained that their book was mishandled. after all, that's REALLY important.

as for azziz and ahmed, if ahmed is hoping for a better land for the future, he might just have to suffer what azziz and his lackies put him through. christ - that land is barbaric as hell - how is that our fault? if the elections are accurate, a good percentage support the transition to democracy - if they even understand what it means - but hey, we can't do every-fuckin'-thing. let ahmed pick up a rifle or a stone and beat the motherfuckers who are entering his home. don't tell me they don't have rifles - they shoot them into the air during weddings, remember?

all this talk about prisoner rights and coddling the prisoners and respecting the prisoners and making the prisoners comfortable. when the fuck did this type of thinking invade the minds of rational people? a prisoner is a prisoner.

there's been no slap in the face of liberty, other than the cock slapping other countries give america on a regular basis. come here, come here, come here - slap, slap. i just wonder when america is gonna wake up and stand straight. we're too busy working overtime, trying to play nicey-nice - people the world over are ****** the shit out of us and we're smiling to put up a good face. it's disgusting. i always smile when i hear about how america is supposed to be this and america is supposed to be that - all the while people from the countries who say what america is supposed to be about live the way they want and don't give a fuck how they're perceived. hypocrites. all hypocrites.

what atrocities, mael? mishandling the koran? give me a fuckin' break.

a couple more things -

1.) i agree that america should be out of there. no threat = bring our men and women home. let those cocksuckers kill themselves with their suicide bombs and savage lifestyle. we're not gonna domesticate all that wildlife.

2.) enemies? shit, man - we have enemies all over and we have people who share our interests all over. enemies and comrades are like dust in the wind, depending on how the wind blows. no matter what, the middle east is our enemy overall. it's written (contextually) in their fuckin' book. we're not gonna 'win their hearts and minds'. such a concept is gay - all pretty rainbows with blue skies and puffy, white clouds.

fuck that.

---------------------------------

easy rhetoric, mael is what's been plastered in the newspapers and shown on the news and unfortunately - it's exactly what you've stated in your post. the easy rhetoric is to say - america should do 'x'; america is bad; america is losing its way; america, america, america - as long as it's followed by something negative. that's the easy stuff because you'll always find america-haters to support it - and it's always fashionable to hate america. always.

someone like sternn isn't an aberration - he's a stereotype.

the fact that a story like this has taken the media by storm should clue you in. if the WORST americans can do to extract information from terrorist suspects in detention is to induce 5 POSSIBLE COUNTS OF BROADLY MISHANDLING THE KORAN, and that's enough to enrage the world, then i say, "fuck ya'all." look in your own goddam mirrors before raising your fists in anger toward us. and for christ's sake - protest accordingly, like giuliani did after the attacks, and refuse to accept money or aid from us when you need it.