General Questions

[ZombieG]

(Yeah yeah, it's technically not whining, but it's for my personal information and worthless outside of that, so I guess worthless posts would fit here. Anyway.)

I joined this board with the intent of trolling. However, after reading on for a little while, I just ended up getting curious. Yeah, I'm a pretty ineffective troll, blah blah, but either way, I just want to have a couple of things cleared up.

Immediately, I just want to know. What exactly do you all consider the criteria that needs to be met in order to be determined "Goth"? For instance, if x person doesn't dress in black, but is the practical reincarnation of Zdzislaw Beksinski, are they any less Goth? What if said person prefers Mozart to Paganini? (Or, I guess 311 to Joy Division...?) Exactly how loose is the "culture" people claim Goth is; is it more of a mentality or image to keep up?

Secondly, this isn't really pertinent to this board, as thankfully I haven't read about any gigantic distress and hatred for "Preps." I'd just really like an explanation, because nearly every Gothic person I've ever met has multiple tales of being berated, yet the vast majority of people I meet that calls themselves "Gothic" has an almost unfathomable hatred for people just because they dress a certain way, or date a cheerleader, etc. So, can someone explain to me exactly how this process works: they shouldn't hate me for being different, but fuck do I hate those American Eagle-wearing faggots!

Lastly (At least as far as I can currently remember), probably my biggest problem: if you claim to be a Gothic person, why piss and moan about being a Gothic person? It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the stigma associated with them (Especially in high school, though I still purport that it shouldn't count, as everyone hates everyone in high school). If different people have always faced being ostracized, and apparently being Gothic is just "being different with black and Combichrist," where exactly is the disconnect?

I'm not really trying to be condescending or accusing at all, I'm genuinely interested in feedback. Though, you probably could've guessed that I don't consider myself a Goth at all. I'm a geek, we don't have enough fashion sense for mix-and-black clothing, I guess? You Gothic women are all so sexy, though.

But yeah. Responses would be appreciated.

[ionic_angel]

Point A:

There's no real definition of what goth is, actually. Although some will claim otherwise.

For some, they will claim it's all about the music. I think that the music is an important part of the "subculture", but not the only "thing" about it. It certainly all started with the music, and I think that someone needs to have more then a passing familiarity with the genre to be considered "goth", but I'm not about to state that one can only listen to gothic music to be a goth, or even mostly gothic music.

That said, goth is virtually the only music I listen to...but that's not because I want to be uber-goth-y, but because I love Switchblade Symphony, Siouxsie, Sisters of Mercy, and etc.

I guess I would say that a goth has at least a few of the following traits:

- Enjoys at least some goth bands

- Can see the beauty/interest/etc in things that "mainstream" culture considers weird, dark, ugly, or etc.

- Doesn't wish to "blend in", be "normal". or etc. (This doesn't mean that you don't like people, it means you don't want to blend in.

- Is artistic

- Thinks/considers/seeks to understand what and why things happen, rather than only accepting or rejecting them.

- Has a distinctly romantic view of life

- Pessimistic/realistic

- Fascinated with death

- Believes black/red/purple is pretty/handsome and has a sense of style

- Wishes/believes there is more than this crude matter. :-)

Now, not every goth is the above, but most have a healthy selection of those traits. Keep in mind that this is simply my opinion though. That said, it's just as valid as any other goths opinion, except, of course, for the fact that I am right.

:-P

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by ZombieG

Secondly, this isn't really pertinent to this board, as thankfully I haven't read about any gigantic distress and hatred for "Preps." I'd just really like an explanation, because nearly every Gothic person I've ever met has multiple tales of being berated, yet the vast majority of people I meet that calls themselves "Gothic" has an almost unfathomable hatred for people just because they dress a certain way, or date a cheerleader, etc. So, can someone explain to me exactly how this process works: they shouldn't hate me for being different, but fuck do I hate those American Eagle-wearing faggots!

Point B:

I can't speak for anyone but myself...but I think that my thoughts are probably in-line with those of many here...

I personally don't care what other people like to listen to or attach themselves to, mainstream-culturally-wise. I don't care if someone wants to listen to Madonna or Slipknot or John Lennon.

What I do care about is when those people decide that listening to a 40-something single mom whose idea of bliss is material wealth is somehow morally or otherwise superior to me clomping around in boots and wearing black.

Now, some goths do see mainstream culture as intellectually bankrupt. Perhaps it is. But that is no reason to treat others like crap or to think one's self superior. So there's no excuse for the snotty way some of them behave. Besides, if you really think yourself superior, the best way to demonstrate it is to be unfailingly polite.

Some of this "hate" may stem from the fact that these "goths" aren't popular, and thus are envious of those they see as inferior in some way receiving things that the "goths" don't believe they deserve. Or it may be sublimated envy.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by ZombieG

Lastly (At least as far as I can currently remember), probably my biggest problem: if you claim to be a Gothic person, why piss and moan about being a Gothic person? It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the stigma associated with them (Especially in high school, though I still purport that it shouldn't count, as everyone hates everyone in high school). If different people have always faced being ostracized, and apparently being Gothic is just "being different with black and Combichrist," where exactly is the disconnect?

Well, it's not just about being different. See, one of the reasons I dress "gothic" is because I actually - gasp! - enjoy it! I, personally, think I look great in it. Now, maybe other people don't, but I think I do. :-)

But some people do go for the "goth" stereotype in order to attract attention, even if it is just hurtful attention. This leads to two benefits for the person:

1. They receive negative attention from some, giving them the satisfaction of being a "victim".
2. They receive positive attention (sympathy, etc) when they complain about it.

These people are the reason some of us would like a "What is your favorite band(s)" test administered before one is allowed to buy black clothes, even if that isn't quite practical. Because these people really annoy the others of us who are into goth because we really like the music/mindset/whatever.

Again, these are just my (correct) opinions.

^ take that with a grain of salt.

:-)

-Eric

[ZombieG]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Well, it's not just about being different. See, one of the reasons I dress "gothic" is because I actually - gasp! - enjoy it! I, personally, think I look great in it. Now, maybe other people don't, but I think I do. :-)

But some people do go for the "goth" stereotype in order to attract attention, even if it is just hurtful attention. This leads to two benefits for the person:

1. They receive negative attention from some, giving them the satisfaction of being a "victim".
2. They receive positive attention (sympathy, etc) when they complain about it.

These people are the reason some of us would like a "What is your favorite band(s)" test administered before one is allowed to buy black clothes, even if that isn't quite practical. Because these people really annoy the others of us who are into goth because we really like the music/mindset/whatever.

Again, these are just my (correct) opinions.

^ take that with a grain of salt.

:-)

-Eric

Okay, I really appreciate your input, but something you just said really just puzzled me so much more. The bit about having a music test. I understand precisely where you're coming from, as I used to play in a metal band, and had to constantly deal with teenagers undergoing identity crisis' and being metal one week, punk the next, and hardcore the next. Ironically, none of them knew who Atheist, The Clash, or Black Flag were. However, it still puzzles me because I can easily fit myself into the criteria you suggested earlier after penning it out. The only thing I didn't find myself applicable to was the Romantic perception of life, because I find it somewhat at odds with being a cynic, a prerogative I ardently embrace and frankly enjoy.

However, I listen to everything. I spent five years writing for two underground music websites, and I've got promo albums from bands like Ram-Zet, Poisonblack, To/Die/For and Sentenced, even down to absolutely horrific Sisters of Mercy tribute bands. Though I wrote mostly about metal and avant-garde music, I really do enjoy everything to a certain extent, even some pop (As long as it's something like Patton's Peeping Tom project), so does that somehow disassociate me with all of the previously listed prerequisites?

Edit: I agree with the ethically bankrupt tendencies of the mainstream, but that's something that extends way, way past just the Gothic community.

[ionic_angel]

Well, I wouldn't say it's the other music that you listen to that would disqualify you - I like Evanescence and Metallica, for example - but whether goth music is the music you enjoy/listen to the most. That's if you have a music test.

The fact is that most distinctions one would like to make in "goth-dom" are a little bit ephemeral, as are many artistic/cultural distinctions. However, they are still real - just as there is a difference between Pollock, Picasso, and Monet, there is a difference between metal-heads, punks, and goths. It's kinda an atmosphere thing. :-P

[ZombieG]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Well, I wouldn't say it's the other music that you listen to that would disqualify you - I like Evanescence and Metallica, for example - but whether goth music is the music you enjoy/listen to the most. That's if you have a music test.

The fact is that most distinctions one would like to make in "goth-dom" are a little bit ephemeral, as are many artistic/cultural distinctions. However, they are still real - just as there is a difference between Pollock, Picasso, and Monet, there is a difference between metal-heads, punks, and goths. It's kinda an atmosphere thing. :-P

I understand what you mean, but I still find it strange and widely-applicable. Just kind of out for a more specific idea, if one even exists. Or else I could be the idiot I was in junior high and randomly wake up one morning, stare at my strange face in the mirror and decide: "Today? Goth. Fuck yeah."

[Godslayer Jillian]

You have pretty much the same opinions we do. You see, over here we do get a bunch of "goths" that listen to shit like Evanescence and Nightwish and think they're goths because they couldn't apply eyeshadow properly if their lives depended on it, feel suicide is cool, cum when they hear the name Lestat, and sincerely avoid sunlight.

But these bastards either get used to our idea of goth, or they get out. We, almost entirely, do not take goth half as serious as wannabe goths do. Most of us acknowledge that it was just an offshoot of punk. We're not smarter because we're goth; we're not more romantic as goths; we're nothing just because we're goths. Confusing our musical tastes and occasional style for a sense of identity would be pretty sad. We don't hate preps - I myself have a little more preppy friends than non-preppy friends, and we get along quite well.
We don't complain about how other people treat us generally. Most of us accept that if we look weird, people will look at us weird. It's a choice, and we can just as well choose not to.
In fact, trying to answer the question of "then why are we here and what are we doing here" I can't really find an answer. I look simply punk save for the gothic band shirts; Badteccy lolz at the cliché that is goth; Ophelia is too cool to be a goth; Kontan gets bored by the 'gothic' scene; Humane's personality goes beyond his wearing black; Wormboy's a metalhead.... The point is that nobody's really goth goth (except perhaps resident deathrockers) but we're certainly gothier than the average crow-looking mopehead that can't get laid. Personally I think you're only goth if you're trying to be in The Batcave (i.e. listening to goth music at the moment or being at a club)

[ionic_angel]

Well, maybe a personal example will help:

I am 23 years old, I like horror movies, horror fiction, and generally love the idea of vampires, old castles, fantastical places and stories, and ruins. All good stuff. I also enjoy writing prose and poetry, I think quite a bit about "deep" subjects, and I find weird stuff interesting...death, spiders, forensic investigation (not just death, but reconstructing any sort of scene - fire, explosion, etc). And many other things, most of which most "normal" people would be frightened or weirded out by.

I really like black (sheesh, this is reading like some sort of personal ad), I really enjoy dressing differently than most people do, and I love boots. I listen to goth music almost exclusively, mostly Sisters of Mercy, Siouxsie, Nephilim, and Switchblade Symphony.

They call people like me goth.

My sister dresses in jeans and a t-shirt, wears sandals or shoes, and likes horses, enjoys country music and jazz, and thinks I am weird. She is not goth.

So what's the difference? Both a continuous mindset, an enduring preference towards certain "darker" things, and steady enjoyment of predominantly goth bands.

[gothicusmaximus]

Don't listen to these posers. If you truly seek to wander the dark path, to brave its perils and master its infernal secrets, you must first sleep one day, from sunrise to sunset, suspended from the ceiling and wrapped in your cape. Do this, and your dreams will show you the way.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

your dreams will show you the way.

Nightmares you mallgoth!

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

total crap

Ok, it's not crap, but I wanted to abbreviate it humorously, and settled for being annoying.

But he makes a few good points, although I think that he minimizes both the realm of goth-dom and fails to understand that it's bigger than punk ever was. This is because he is, at heart, a punk. :-P

But yeah, no hatred for preppies there either, I note, even if I disagree with his idea of goth or the idea that you're only goth when at a club or listening to music.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Don't listen to these posers. If you truly seek to wander the dark path, to brave its perils and master its infernal secrets, you must first sleep one day, from sunrise to sunset, suspended from the ceiling and wrapped in your cape. Do this, and your dreams will show you the way.

Use superglue. Tying your ankles to the ceiling cuts off circulation.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Use superglue. Tying your ankles to the ceiling cuts off circulation.

My dark blood flows as I will it, insolent cur.

[ZombieG]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You have pretty much the same opinions we do. You see, over here we do get a bunch of "goths" that listen to shit like Evanescence and Nightwish and think they're goths because they couldn't apply eyeshadow properly if their lives depended on it, feel suicide is cool, cum when they hear the name Lestat, and sincerely avoid sunlight.

But these bastards either get used to our idea of goth, or they get out. We, almost entirely, do not take goth half as serious as wannabe goths do. Most of us acknowledge that it was just an offshoot of punk. We're not smarter because we're goth; we're not more romantic as goths; we're nothing just because we're goths. Confusing our musical tastes and occasional style for a sense of identity would be pretty sad. We don't hate preps - I myself have a little more preppy friends than non-preppy friends, and we get along quite well.
We don't complain about how other people treat us generally. Most of us accept that if we look weird, people will look at us weird. It's a choice, and we can just as well choose not to.
In fact, trying to answer the question of "then why are we here and what are we doing here" I can't really find an answer. I look simply punk save for the gothic band shirts; Badteccy lolz at the cliché that is goth; Ophelia is too cool to be a goth; Kontan gets bored by the 'gothic' scene; Humane's personality goes beyond his wearing black; Wormboy's a metalhead.... The point is that nobody's really goth goth (except perhaps resident deathrockers) but we're certainly gothier than the average crow-looking mopehead that can't get laid. Personally I think you're only goth if you're trying to be in The Batcave (i.e. listening to goth music at the moment or being at a club)

I'm not really pointing the finger at anyone here specifically for some sort of strange self-isolation, just looking for general answers.

This is precisely what I was looking to read, by the way. I'm just more and more convinced these days that the only difference between "Goths" and people who're just of a different culture in general is the terminology applied.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

My dark blood flows as I will it, insolent cur.

Well my you be insulted, oh grand exalted one, save that I was advising the newbie, who, of course, possesses none of the manifest control over his bodily functions that you have so graciously demonstrated.

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by ZombieG

This is precisely what I was looking to read, by the way. I'm just more and more convinced these days that the only difference between "Goths" and people who're just of a different culture in general is the terminology applied.

Well, the general attitudes and ideas and art forms present in the goth subculture tend to be different than those of other cultures or subcultures or of western mainstream culture.

But, yeah, that doesn't make it better, just different. Some of us like that difference.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

it's bigger than punk ever was.

That's impossible!







....


Ok, you might have had a point in the latter part of the post.

[ZombieG]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Well, the general attitudes and ideas and art forms present in the goth subculture tend to be different than those of other cultures or subcultures or of western mainstream culture.

But, yeah, that doesn't make it better, just different. Some of us like that difference.

I don't know, morbidly abstract covers a lot of subjects. I personally don't see how any group like Sisters of Mercy can possibly be anymore viable of an artistic alternative than groups like Wormed or Bodies in the Gears of the Apparatus. Not an extremely pertinent point, but I think that the idea of the culture can be widely applicable to say the least.

I understand where the root ideal separates in contrast to things such as emo and whatnot, but I don't know. The lines blur a lot.

[KontanKarite]

Goth, is simply this, a power word. A word used to SELL a PRODUCT to a teenager who feels at odds with other things.

This is why the goth subculture is as diverse as it is. Because Hot Topic and Nightwish are CAPITALIZING on the angst of these kids.

Goth, it's a tool for capitalism to make a quick buck.

Upon retrospect, the only thing that makes a goth, is one who is a fan of the music and what goth music is. That being, a fan of those bands that started the movement. NOT VNV Nation, NOT CombiChrist, and DEFFINATLY NOT Throbbing Gristle.

Me, personally, I grew up as a kids fascinated by mystery, darkness, ghost stories, and all things spooky and camp. This was a natural attraction I had as a child. I'm not saying goths are born because they aren't. I'm not goth because I enjoy moonlit walks in the cemeteries, I'm not goth because I write shitty gloomy poetry, and I'm not goth because I wear lots of black or punkish looking clothing. These things have been purely my own design for as long as I've been alive. It's MY aesthetic. The only thing that makes me "goth" is because I'm a fan of Specimen, Siousxie, Virgin Prunes, The Damned, and other various goth rock bands.

So in essence, I'm not goth either. I don't listen to techno, I don't shop at hot topic or even spend hundreds of dollars on expensive "gothic" clothing.

To anyone with tendencies to say they do the "gothic" things and that makes them "goth" might be true, but they're also contrived people. The more one indulges in a dark aesthetic so that they can call themselves goths is entirely right. But goths are contrived.

I can't even go to a goth club, request Christian Death, and enjoy it without it being some kind of EBM or techno remix of it. So yeah, goth essentially, is pretty fucking lame. But that's because I'm not a fan of future pop, I guess.

[Breathless Horror]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Upon retrospect, the only thing that makes a goth, is one who is a fan of the music and what goth music is. That being, a fan of those bands that started the movement. NOT VNV Nation, NOT CombiChrist, and DEFFINATLY NOT Throbbing Gristle.

I can't even go to a goth club, request Christian Death, and enjoy it without it being some kind of EBM or techno remix of it. So yeah, goth essentially, is pretty fucking lame. But that's because I'm not a fan of future pop, I guess.

Hey! I like VNV Nation, I find their music very soothing.

To the second, thats actually kind of sad. I love Christian Death, but I really don't think a remix would be worth listening to.

Mmmm....Siouxsie, Christian Death for the win!

[Breathless Horror]

Oh yeah, almost forgot, with regards to the seemingly prevailent hatred of preps is usually among "gothics" rather than goths. I've often found "gothics" take themselves WAY too seriuously, thus making themselves really easy targets for harrassment and bullying etc. For those, I'd say it's either reactionary or just another manifestation of thier angst. I've yet to meet a true goth that hated anyone without a VERY good reason.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

What to post? What to post? I got nothing, I'll stay out of this one.

[Bete Noire]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Goth, is simply this, a power word. A word used to SELL a PRODUCT to a teenager who feels at odds with other things.

This is why the goth subculture is as diverse as it is. Because Hot Topic and Nightwish are CAPITALIZING on the angst of these kids.

Goth, it's a tool for capitalism to make a quick buck.

Upon retrospect, the only thing that makes a goth, is one who is a fan of the music and what goth music is. That being, a fan of those bands that started the movement. NOT VNV Nation, NOT CombiChrist, and DEFFINATLY NOT Throbbing Gristle.

Me, personally, I grew up as a kids fascinated by mystery, darkness, ghost stories, and all things spooky and camp. This was a natural attraction I had as a child. I'm not saying goths are born because they aren't. I'm not goth because I enjoy moonlit walks in the cemeteries, I'm not goth because I write shitty gloomy poetry, and I'm not goth because I wear lots of black or punkish looking clothing. These things have been purely my own design for as long as I've been alive. It's MY aesthetic. The only thing that makes me "goth" is because I'm a fan of Specimen, Siousxie, Virgin Prunes, The Damned, and other various goth rock bands.

So in essence, I'm not goth either. I don't listen to techno, I don't shop at hot topic or even spend hundreds of dollars on expensive "gothic" clothing.

To anyone with tendencies to say they do the "gothic" things and that makes them "goth" might be true, but they're also contrived people. The more one indulges in a dark aesthetic so that they can call themselves goths is entirely right. But goths are contrived.

I can't even go to a goth club, request Christian Death, and enjoy it without it being some kind of EBM or techno remix of it. So yeah, goth essentially, is pretty fucking lame. But that's because I'm not a fan of future pop, I guess.

You have seen "the light."
Goth IS contrived, because when a subculture becomes something more than a vague idea or a musical style, it becomes increasingly restrictive, as more and more "rules" are put in place.

[Apathy's_Child]

I can explain it, Z. 80% of all people are idiots. Ergo, the law of averages states that 80% of all goths are idiots.