Preachers of separatism at work in Britain's Mosques

[Cen0bite]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...s-mosques.html

In a large balcony above the beautiful main hall at Regent's Park Mosque in London - widely considered the most important mosque in Britain - I am filming undercover as the woman preacher gives her talk.

What should be done to a Muslim who converts to another faith? "We kill him," she says, "kill him, kill, kill…You have to kill him, you understand?"

Adulterers, she says, are to be stoned to death - and as for homosexuals, and women who "make themselves like a man, a woman like a man ... the punishment is kill, kill them, throw them from the highest place".

These punishments, the preacher says, are to be implemented in a future Islamic state. "This is not to tell you to start killing people," she continues. "There must be a Muslim leader, when the Muslim army becomes stronger, when Islam has grown enough."

A young female student from the group interrupts her: the punishment should also be to stone the homosexuals to death, once they have been thrown from a high place.

These are teachings I never expected to hear inside Regent's Park Mosque, which is supposedly committed to interfaith dialogue and moderation, and was set up more than 60 years ago, to represent British Muslims to the Government. And many of those listening were teenage British girls or, even more disturbingly, young children.

My investigation for Channel 4's Dispatches came after last year's Undercover Mosque, which investigated claims that teachings of intolerance and fundamentalism were spreading through Britain's mosques from the Saudi Arabian religious establishment - which is closely linked to the Saudi Arabian government.

In response, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia denied it was spreading intolerance, while Regent's Park Mosque, which featured in the film, urged all mosques to be "vigilant" and monitor what was taught on their premises.

So earlier this year, dressed in a full Islamic jilbaab, I went back to Regent's Park Mosque to see what was being taught there. As a woman, I had to go to the main female section, where I found this circle preaching every Saturday and Sunday, eight hours at a time, to any woman who has come to pray.

The mosque is meant to promote moderation and integration. But although the circle does preach against terrorism and does not incite Muslims to break British laws, it teaches Muslims to "keep away" and segregate themselves from disbelievers: "Islam is keeping away from disbelief and from the disbelievers, the people who disbelieve."

Friendship with non-Muslims is discouraged because "loyalty is only to the Muslim, not to the kaffir [disbeliever]".

A woman who was friendly with a non-Muslim woman was heavily criticised: "It's part of Islam, of the correct belief, that you love those who love Allah and that you hate those who hate Allah."

One preacher even says Muslims shouldn't live in Britain at all: "It is not befitting for Muslims that he should reside in the land of evil, the land of the kuffaar, the land of the disbelievers."

Another, Um Saleem, says Muslims should not take British citizenship as their loyalty is to Allah.

"Some conditions can take you into disbelief, to take the British citizenship, whether you like it or not, for these people, you are selling your religion, it's a very serious thing, it is not allowed to give allegiance to other than Allah."

Their teachings shocked me. This was not the Islam that I and many other Muslims in the UK were taught as youngsters, nor is it a version that most Muslims follow.

I was amazed at how many young British women seemed to find this version of the faith attractive. One young girl told me that when she first attended the circle, she was dressed in jeans and that she had many non-Muslim friends. She now loves only those that are around her - "other sisters in the circle" - and only engages with non-Muslims to try to convert them. Many of the sisters had the idea of living as a separate community - a concept alien to me and many other Muslims I know.

Regent's Park Mosque has a major interfaith department, which arranges visits from the Government, the civil service, representatives of other religions and thousands of British school children a year.

I watched as an interfaith group was brought in to meet the mosque's women's circle for a civilised exchange. But when the interfaith group wasn't there, the preacher attacked other faiths, and the very concept of interfaith dialogue.

One preacher said of Christians praying in a church: "What are these people doing in there, these things are so vile, what they say with their tongues is so vile and disgusting, it's an abomination." As for the concept of interfaith live-and-let-live: "This is false. It does not work. This concept is a lie, it is fake, and it is a farce."

[Cen0bite]

Like many of the other women at the circle, I was soon invited to private sessions in houses around London, to "learn more" about Islam - or their version of Islam. Um Saleem was also at some of these sessions. Here, the women were given strict restrictions on their lives: it is reiterated that British Muslim women cannot travel far without a male guardian, cannot mix with men, and have to remain fully covered up at all times.

One woman in the audience queried the strict rulings that she cannot travel without a mahram - a male member of the family - escorting her. She asked: "Sister, if me and my husband, we can't go together, what do I do if I want to go?"

She was told she cannot travel by herself.

She asked again: "So what do I do?"

"You go with your husband," Um Saleem replied.

There were also restrictions on education or work opportunities. One woman, who works for the NHS, was told she should leave her job as it meant mixing with men and not wearing a full Islamic garment.

"You know that working in an environment that is not Islamic, working with the kuffaar, all this takes you away from the religion and hardens your heart and it would be lying to you if I say it's OK," Um Saleem explained.

Um Saleem also criticised Muslim women who integrate into society - a view that is counter to the aims of the Regent's Park Mosque.

"You see Muslims in every sphere of everyday life in this country, I see Muslims, it breaks my heart when I see them working in banks, short sleeves, tight scarf like this, make-up, being with the kuffaar all the time, even speaking their language," she said.

The director general of Regent's Park Mosque is Dr Ahmed Al Dubayan, a Saudi diplomat. He has denied to Dispatches that his mosque promotes the Saudi version of the faith, often called Wahhabism. And indeed, the imams in the main hall are Egyptian, and the sermons I heard from them were tolerant and moderate when you listen to them on Fridays.

But the preachers I heard in the women's section took their theology directly from Saudi Arabia. One of them had recently returned from three years of study in Saudi Arabia, and the other preachers almost exclusively directed me to the works, sermons, fatwas and online sites of the scholars of the Saudi Arabian religious establishment and their adherents.

Confronted with these female preachers' comments, Dr Al Dubayan insisted that the views did not reflect those of the Regent's Park Mosque, and that Um Saleem was not an authorised teacher. "The ICC [the London Central Mosque and Islamic Cultural Centre, most commonly referred to as the Regent's Park Mosque] is committed to interfaith and cross-cultural understanding," he said. "It does not support or condone extreme views, racial hatred, violence or intolerance."

He said one of the preachers we filmed was unknown to him. Another, Um Saleem, had requested permission to be an authorised teacher at the mosque, but had been refused, as she did not supply references and written information about her teachings and views. Until I contacted him, both he and the mosque had not known of her teachings and views.

Um Saleem later told me that her comments that Muslims could not take British citizenship were "erroneous" and indeed apologised for them. As for comments that Muslims cannot live in a non-Muslim country, she agreed that the language used was "inappropriate". She continued: "Whilst it is recommended for a Muslim to migrate to a Muslim country, it is not obligatory."

She added: "We are not blind followers of any government or any 'clerics'. We do criticise other religions, just as other religions criticise Islam…we encourage integration into society."

However, she stood by some of her other claims, stating that the rulings that women could not travel alone, and could not work if it conflicted with religious requirements, were "totally justified by Islamic texts".

"You may regard these juristic and textual rulings as 'extreme restrictions'," she said. "But we see them as our way of life and a liberation of the soul."

The Mosque's official bookshop was another focus for the Dispatches film last year when our reporters discovered intolerant and fundamentalist DVDs.

Dr Al Dubayan said they would be removed pending an investigation, but I found the same fundamentalist preachers' works still openly displayed and sold there. DVDs preaching that disbelievers are "evil, wicked, mischievous people ... they do the most evil, filthy things"; that men are in charge of women and should control them.

One speaker says of the Jews: "Their time will come, like every other evil person's time will come." Another speech, this time by Sheikh Khalid Yasin, who learned Arabic in Saudi Arabia, praised the deterrent effect of sharia law: "Then people can see, people without hands, people can see in public heads rolling down the street, people got [sic] their hands and feet from opposite sides chopped off and they see them crucified…they see people put up against the pole and see them get lashed in public they see it, and because they see it, it acts as a deterrent for them because they say I don't want that to happen to me."

Sheikh Yasin responded to me that his comments should be considered in context. He said he did not support or promote Saudi Arabian government policy or religious rhetoric, and said capital punishments were carried out by many states and governments. "The lecture was aimed at reforming the Muslim people, the Muslim society and the Muslim world … to be adjudicated by the Sovereign Islamic State" when one exists.

The company that runs the bookshop, Darussalam International Publications, is a British company with links to Saudi Arabia.

Darussalam International Publications told me that the bookshop sells a wide range of material which they "do not necessarily agree with".

It said: "We try to represent a variety of... opinions through the products we sell…in order to spread peace, respect, tolerance and understanding."

Dr Al Dubayan reiterated that the bookshop was run by an independent company. "Despite having no control over the bookshop, we met with those running the bookshop after your programme was broadcast. We made it clear that it was not acceptable for the bookshop to stock materials containing extremist views. We were assured … all offending material had been removed."

Interviewees for the film explained that an ideology like this has spread throughout Britain's mosques from the Saudi Arabian religious establishment. One leading Muslim figure told me: "Petrodollar money coming from Saudi Arabia has basically distorted the growth and development of the Muslim community in Britain"; while a British imam accuses them of distorting Islam - "the abuse and misuse of this great faith of mine".

I share the imam's outrage at the way a peaceful monotheistic religion - so close to Christianity and Judaism in its essential beliefs - has been hijacked. To hear a call for the killing of someone because of his or her sexuality or for changing their faith in what is meant to be a place of contemplation is truly shocking.

The imam went on to say: "The underlying motive here is to find a way of continuously implanting this permanent wedge between the wider British society and the younger Muslims living in Britain."

As Professor Anthony Glees, who runs the Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies at Brunel University, explains: "To think, as I believe our government thinks, that it makes ideological sense to play patsy with the Saudi government is folly of the first order of magnitude. We will be paying for it for years to come."

[Geoluhread]

That's ...... Ehm.... Interesting

This um saleem chick seem to forget the message islam brings, which is tolerance, forgiveness, and moderation
And her ways and methods of "teaching" are more of to scare people away, where she should take "how to preach 101"... If i ever went to one of her circles i would be horrified...

And by saying that muslims shouldn't mingle with non muslims, she's forgetting how islam was spread in the first place

And about women not leaving the house alone, it is true, but if a woman didn't have someone to go out with, she can if she needed something but being fully dressed and not being a "bitch", she can work and study if the environment was strictly professional...
It's only to protect women from being taken advantage off

I was in ukraine last year, and i didn't feel safe because any minute a drunk guy can come and rob/**** me and if i scream in the street no one will give a Damn... But here, if i someone even stalked me, i can come up to any guy and tell him to help me and they would

Of course not everyone here is the same, it all comes to how religious they are
But pretty much, i feel safer here

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

That's ...... Ehm.... Interesting

This um saleem chick seem to forget the message islam brings, which is tolerance, forgiveness, and moderation

All religions SAY that. It's like a disclaimer.

[Cen0bite]

Muslims to me seem like wolves in sheeps clothing sometimes. I'm just tired of hearing about them.

Pat Condell recently did a video, and i agree with some of what he says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIq7tsVvEoY

[Geoluhread]

Islam, is a word derived from salam. Which means peace..
I don't know much about jews, but i see christains and priests... I don't think that ignoring the sexual desire that god put in humans in the first place is something that god would want*I'm talking about priests and nuns*

I don't mean to insult anyone out there, but this thing put big question marks in my head

[Saya]

It sounds like its a cult. I understand that Islam itself is a religion of peace, and it makes one wince to see it so distorted like that. Its so strange I find it odd that Jesus and Muhammad would preach peace tolerance and love and this is how some followers decide to interpret them?

And it reminds me, I meant to go watch Jesus Camp......

[Geoluhread]

The way islam is presented the way it is
Is because Capitalisim wants you to think that way, but have you really interacted with muslims? Lived in their community for a while?

[Saya]

I think fringe groups like this do deserve coverage, but people should stop treating it as if fanatics only exist in the Muslim world. I think we hear so much about these things because they are the Enemy. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the media and politicians needed a new bad guy, you know? Well at least thats the impression I get from watching American news.

[Cen0bite]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

Islam, is a word derived from salam. Which means peace..
I don't know much about jews, but i see christains and priests... I don't think that ignoring the sexual desire that god put in humans in the first place is something that god would want*I'm talking about priests and nuns*

I don't mean to insult anyone out there, but this thing put big question marks in my head

Whoa, i'm sorry, but did you just say that sexual desire was put in us by god?
That's....bullshit.

[Geoluhread]

It'S your opinion...
I have my beliefs,.

And saya... Thank you!!

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Cen0bite

Whoa, i'm sorry, but did you just say that sexual desire was put in us by god?
That's....bullshit.

So the need to perpetuate the species was a devil's idea?

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Well even if it was the "devil's idea" God technically still created it.

[Necrophagist]

Lol. So basically the need to reproduce is a sin CenObite?

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Originally Posted by Necrophagist

Lol. So basically the need to reproduce is a sin CenObite?

Everything is a sin. They have to look like hypocrites somehow.

[Saya]

Pffft. We all know we have sexual desire because of the thetans in us that Emperor Xenu murdered.

[Cen0bite]

Originally Posted by Necrophagist

Lol. So basically the need to reproduce is a sin CenObite?

Seeing as how i don't believe in sin, i see it that way.
I think some religions have taken natural feelings and instincts and turned them into sin to have control over others.

[Necrophagist]

To be honest i've only found that "everything is a sin" lark, coming from Catholic priests of the Medieval period.

[Wednesday Friday Addams]

Originally Posted by Cen0bite

Seeing as how i don't believe in sin, i see it that way.
I think some religions have taken natural feelings and instincts and turned them into sin to have control over others.

If you don't believe in sin how the hell can you think reproduction is a sin?

[Cen0bite]

Sorry. I meant to say that I DIDN't see it that way.

[Saya]

But Geo wasn't saying that it was a sin, she was saying it couldn't be a sin since its natural and God designed us that way.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Cen0bite

Seeing as how i don't believe in sin, i see it that way.
I think some religions have taken natural feelings and instincts and turned them into sin to have control over others.

Then you were merely insulting a LOGICAL conjecture just because you don't believe it.
Fuck, not even I do that.
Geo was speaking about the preacher's view in life. Sexual desire is something natural, therefore if they believe in God how could they believe it's not God-given?
That's fucking awesome, but just because you don't agree with the premises you proclaim the validity is bullshit.

That's as stupid as when I was telling a guy numerous examples of errors in the bible, and this other guy tells me I'm stupid because the bible is not true.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Geoluhread

And about women not leaving the house alone, it is true, but if a woman didn't have someone to go out with, she can if she needed something but being fully dressed and not being a "bitch", she can work and study if the environment was strictly professional...
It's only to protect women from being taken advantage off

I could go ad nauseum about how the way a woman is dressed will not insure her safety in the slightest, but I won't.

Instead I'd like to point out a similarity between this culture's beliefs and much of the world, especially the United States. What these women are essentially doing are sacrificing basic freedoms in the name of protection and security. While most American's criticize this, we in this country essentially do the same. We really do sacrifice our basic freedoms, privacy, free speech, democratic voting, all in the name of being safe from, "terrorists".

I'm actually glad Geo said what she did, she did rather point out something I've been wondering, what are the pros of such a sexist system? I guess it makes a bit of sense that you would feel more safe. I don't agree with this system at all, but it was still insightful.

As for the person speaking in the article, I don't think she has her religion on straight. Didn't Mohamed try to teach peace and virtue? He speaks, as far as I've read into the subject, of peace, of wisdom, of kindness. Why then would his followers and the followers of his God be asked to kill and torture?