WitchCraft

[FatGoth]

Some think ghosts are what give the answers in a divination, some think it is God, some think is Energies or vibrations and others think it is things we already know that can be brought into focus. I say pick an explanation that work for you. For me the most important thing is that the divination works, not why it works.

How many kids will be beaten because their parents beleive that if their children go to Hell, so will they? How many children in Africa are being abused and murdered because evangelists christians have them convinced that their children have demons that have to be removed?

How many Buddhists have been killed in Tibet because religion go against the type of Communism China practices. Seriously we can continue with a never ending but such and such group did so and so. However it is not religion or atheism or whatever cause in which the atrocities are done in the name of which is the cause of such suffering, it is fanaticism, and any cause might breed fanaticism.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

But are religion and state not very similar things? They are both institutions of coersion. They both require you to abandon your own judgement and logic in order to benefit a very small elite, while telling you that everyone is equal in the eyes of god/under the law. But of course, we all know how pius and law-abiding the wealthy are, never having had a necessity to break either commandment or law.

Your argument is invalid; it's the logic that matters, not weather atheists are better people than theists. It's the ability to use logic to form opinions and beleifs that matters. Atheism is logical; the burdon of proof is on the THEIST. It's an inablity to think critically that leads people to violence in the name of gods or government.

I already answered this point. The people who did that weren't fanatic atheists, they were fanatic state-ists. The state religion could have been anything and they still would have killed the Tibetan Monks.

No Gods. No Masters.

Peace.

[FatGoth]

No religion and state are not similar thing. And personally I do not think religion and state should be mixed. Now there are several definitions for what the word religion mean, but the one I adhere to is that religion is a system of spirituality which is an inportant part of ones lives. And that is not a system of coercion.

Now your posts show allot of prejudice and very little of the logic and reason you put so high. You also make the same mistake of lumping every religion into the same category as so many Atheists do. While some religions requires you to follow the leadership of the clergy unquestionably, there are also many who do not have such systems.

For example, I belong to no Church, no organized religion. I very much think about my faith and make my own judgments and my choices in that regard benefits none but my self. Try to understand that not all religious pepole are Christians.

That being said, why the hell would I want to prove my religion to you. What makes you think that it matters to me what you believe? I can not dissect my religion in a lab and show you the result on a piece of paper. I know what I believe, what I have experienced and that is my truth. If you believe differently, then fine, I do not need your approval to believe, just as you do not need my approval to believe that there are nothing Spiritual. I however can respect your belief. It is quite alien to me, but I can respect it. The question is if you can give the same respect back to those that believe differently than yourself.

[FatGoth]

I already answered this point. The people who did that weren't fanatic atheists, they were fanatic state-ists. The state religion could have been anything and they still would have killed the Tibetan Monks.

And this is the same as with any atrocity. It might carry the name of some religion, some sate or some cause, but it all boils down to fanaticism. Do you really think for example the war in the middle east have anything to do with religion? That is the pegs the war is placed on, but the real issues is political, it is about controlling land masses, bad blood and conflicts between two peoples. Do you really think that the Israeli and the Palestinians would live together happily if they did not have their religions? No if so they would find some other name to fight for.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

No religion and state are not similar thing.

Mmmm. Yes they are, as I demonstrated in my previous post. But do go on.

And personally I do not think religion and state should be mixed.

Um. Good? I'm not sure where that one came from, but let's keep pulling things out of your ass. Like your definition of religion.

Now there are several definitions for what the word religion mean, but the one I adhere to is that religion is a system of spirituality which is an inportant part of ones lives. And that is not a system of coercion.

WELL, you certainly got me there. Just kidding. "Alternative" religions are a really big market. Some people make massive ammounts of money off of your beleifs that you don't need to justify with logic. Capitalism is undoutedly coersive.

I guess you could blame yourself for beleiving things that don't make any sense and cannot be proven, and tell the world you came to this descision all on your own. But I think it'd be kinder on YOU if you'd just admit that you were too ignorant to realize the level at which you were advertised to, and that you bought your little personality-enhancer called religion without realizing why. Gosh, faith is just so darned quirky.

Now your posts show allot of prejudice and very little of the logic and reason you put so high. You also make the same mistake of lumping every religion into the same category as so many Atheists do. While some religions requires you to follow the leadership of the clergy unquestionably, there are also many who do not have such systems.

I could make that lump MUCH bigger- it's the cancerous growth that results from being illogical and refusing to aknowledge that the sole purpose of capitalism, government, and religion is to exploit.

For example, I belong to no Church, no organized religion. I very much think about my faith and make my own judgments and my choices in that regard benefits none but my self. Try to understand that not all religious pepole are Christians.

Why can't you see that the clergy of your "religion" are the capitalists who make money off of you, or at least 'sell' you the idea of 'faith'?

Also, first your argument was that I lumped all the religions together, which is an over-simplification, but KIND OF true. Then you claim I think all religious people are christians? What?

That being said, why the hell would I want to prove my religion to you. What makes you think that it matters to me what you believe? I can not dissect my religion in a lab and show you the result on a piece of paper.

why can't you? Why would you waste time adamantly beleiving something that you CANNOT know is true?

I know what I believe, what I have experienced and that is my truth. If you believe differently, then fine, I do not need your approval to believe, just as you do not need my approval to believe that there are nothing Spiritual. I however can respect your belief. It is quite alien to me, but I can respect it. The question is if you can give the same respect back to those that believe differently than yourself.

I hate the point in discussion where people start asking if you can respect them and seek approval while claiming that they don't need validation. I don't care. You have the burdon of proof, but you can't prove anything (by your own admission), so you're kind of stuck.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

And this is the same as with any atrocity. It might carry the name of some religion, some sate or some cause, but it all boils down to fanaticism. Do you really think for example the war in the middle east have anything to do with religion? That is the pegs the war is placed on, but the real issues is political, it is about controlling land masses, bad blood and conflicts between two peoples. Do you really think that the Israeli and the Palestinians would live together happily if they did not have their religions? No if so they would find some other name to fight for.

You have a way of skipping right over the point. The root of fanaticism is exploitation. The root of religion is exploitation, the root of government is exploitation, the root of capitalism is exploitation.

Fanaticism is like the edge of insanity that can't be treated or cured. Religion without extremism is still crazy. Don't ask me to accept it as a healthy beleif.

[FatGoth]

Mmmm. Yes they are, as I demonstrated in my previous post. But do go on.

I disagree that your post demonstrates any such thing.

Um. Good? I'm not sure where that one came from, but let's keep pulling things out of your ass. Like your definition of religion.

My definition of religion is quite common. Read a bit. As for pulling things our of ones ass, that my dear is where you are the champion.

WELL, you certainly got me there. Just kidding. "Alternative" religions are a really big market. Some people make massive ammounts of money off of your beleifs that you don't need to justify with logic. Capitalism is undoutedly coersive.

Ah, so now it is capitalism. So if I should happen to buy a book about Paganism then I am coerced by my religion, but if I buy a computer game, then that is me acting all on my own because big bad religion is not involved. This is a capitalist society, pepole buy things, it is hardly any activity or interest you can have that you do not pay for, that is not coercion that is a fact of how we live.

I guess you could blame yourself for beleiving things that don't make any sense and cannot be proven, and tell the world you came to this descision all on your own. But I think it'd be kinder on YOU if you'd just admit that you were too ignorant to realize the level at which you were advertised to, and that you bought your little personality-enhancer called religion without realizing why. Gosh, faith is just so darned quirky.

Oh spare me born again Atheists. So damaged and ignorant that they can not accept that other believe differently than them. It is rather sad. I have spent many years considering religious subjects, but think what you will. If being an arrogant idiot make you feel good about yourself, then by all means.

I could make that lump MUCH bigger- it's the cancerous growth that results from being illogical and refusing to aknowledge that the sole purpose of capitalism, government, and religion is to exploit.

Off course the goal of capitalism is to exploit, if this is your big revelation then you are a little late to the party. It have always been about exploitation. Government however, how do you think a society would fare with no government, now laws? Do you think there be less exploitation then? Without rules it would be survival of the fittest, nothing else. Off course members of the government have their own agendas, but a society need leadership.

Why can't you see that the clergy of your "religion" are the capitalists who make money off of you, or at least 'sell' you the idea of 'faith'?

So if someone sell a Pagan book, that is leading a religion, but it is quite ok to sell me books on other topics, the computer I write this one, or pink toothpaste? Or the books where you learn about what you believe in, they exist in a vacuum them I take it, they are not part of the rest of the merchandise one can buy and the pepole writing and selling them are not in any way affecting you. If I am affected by the ones selling me the books on my religion, then you are as much affected by the ones selling you the books on yours.

Also, first your argument was that I lumped all the religions together, which is an over-simplification, but KIND OF true. Then you claim I think all religious people are christians? What?

I said you seam to forget that not all religions pepole are not Christians. I may be mistaken, but this is so common among Atheists, especially those who are not just happy believing what they do but have to oppose religion. They argue away with fact which may be true about Christianity, Judaism and Islam and seam to forget that not all religious pepole fall into this category. If I have misjudged you about that, then I am sorry.

why can't you? Why would you waste time adamantly beleiving something that you CANNOT know is true?

I know there are things which are real, which can not be proved in a lab. Not everything can be dissected. That do not make something not real. You can not prove the existence of love, you can prove there are some chemicals in the brain that causes attracting, but you can not prove the existence of love, and yes most pepole know it is real.

I hate the point in discussion where people start asking if you can respect them and seek approval while claiming that they don't need validation. I don't care. You have the burdon of proof, but you can't prove anything (by your own admission), so you're kind of stuck.

Respect have nothing to do with approval. It have to do with accepting that others are different, and that their opinions are important to them even if you do not agree with them. Let me take an example. I am interested in BDSM, my mother is a feminist, she will never approve, but she do respect my choice. It may be that I am a bit old fashioned, but I have always believed that showing a bit of respect for other pepole, even if you do not agree with them and think their opinions are wrong will go a long way to making this a better world.

You have a way of skipping right over the point. The root of fanaticism is exploitation. The root of religion is exploitation, the root of government is exploitation, the root of capitalism is exploitation.

I do not agree with you. I do not know how much more I can say. I think that we are far to far from one another in opinion that a debate on this will be fruitful and will lead to anything other than an argument. Sometimes all one can do is to agree to disagree.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Originally Posted by FatGoth

How many Buddhists have been killed in Tibet because religion go against the type of Communism China practices. Seriously we can continue with a never ending but such and such group did so and so. However it is not religion or atheism or whatever cause in which the atrocities are done in the name of which is the cause of such suffering, it is fanaticism, and any cause might breed fanaticism.

China is fine and peachy with all other kinds of Buddhism now, but Tibetan Buddhism is different since it is a statist religion; it recognizes that the Dalai Lama is the rightful and holy leader of Tibet, thereby threatening the Chinese dictatorship. Like Jane said, it has far more to do with fanatic statists than atheism, if the Chinese dictatorship was Christian or whatever they'd do the same, any religion that accepts unconditionally another authority is a threat to them.

[KontanKarite]

SweetJane is kicking your ass, Fat Goth. :-/

I will say though, that if we were going to have theists, my observations point towards dealing with pagans being a whole lot easier. Paganism has no teeth. In a system of faith where every whim is okay, we find there are no spiritual truths, no spiritual laws, unlike science and sadly unlike Abrahamic religions such as Judaism and Christianity which are at least bold enough to say there ARE spiritual truths that apply to mankind as a whole, even if they're wrong.

I can't stand their influence in my life and the politics and social influences of my nation, but I can at least respect that Christianity has enough balls to affect the world in one way or another and attempt to unite people.

Paganism is so wishy washy, you may as well be atheist by sheer logical demand of the proof Paganism needs to have any amount of respectable credibility.

[AsylumVoid]

More religion arguments, goody goody.

Why would your mother not approve of BDSM because she's a feminist? I'm a feminist and have no qualms with BDSM if it's between two informed, consenting adults. Trying to control someone's sexuality when it's not harming anyone is ridiculous and as a feminist, telling a people what they can and cannot like sexually is just more opression, which is exactly what feminists don't want. I am going off of the subject a little, I know, I'm just curious as to why she believes this.

Respect is definitely a good thing but I don't think it means that we can't question eachother's or our own beliefs.
Every emotion and thought we experience is neurons firing electrons down pathways in our brains. Emotions don't appear from no where, we experience stimulus and react to it. "Love" is the short hand term for the process that makes us experience love. It isn't how we know it's real but that doesn't mean that there isn't a process going on in the microscopic level in your brain and that it is this mystical thing that can't be explained. People find this really hard to accept for some reason.

In my opinion, people align themselves with religions to give themselves purpose because humans seem to be obsessed with making the universe revolve around us.

[KontanKarite]

How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? 3. One to rattle the pans in the kitchen, one to do my laundry, and one to suck deez nutz! I'll get to that light bulb when I damn well feel like it.

[AsylumVoid]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb? 3. One to rattle the pans in the kitchen, one to do my laundry, and one to suck deez nutz! I'll get to that light bulb when I damn well feel like it.

lol, old but jokes.

[KontanKarite]

It's always funny.

[FatGoth]

I will say though, that if we were going to have theists, my observations point towards dealing with pagans being a whole lot easier. Paganism has no teeth. In a system of faith where every whim is okay, we find there are no spiritual truths, no spiritual laws, unlike science and sadly unlike Abrahamic religions such as Judaism and Christianity which are at least bold enough to say there ARE spiritual truths that apply to mankind as a whole, even if they're wrong.

So what you are looking for is not something to believe in, it is a big brother who will lay down the law for you instead of you laying down to law for yourself?

SweetJane is kicking your ass, Fat Goth. :-/

And here I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum for debate between adults and not kindergarten fights my mistake.

[FatGoth]

Why would your mother not approve of BDSM because she's a feminist? I'm a feminist and have no qualms with BDSM if it's between two informed, consenting adults.

It is possibly this is a Norwegian thing only, but in Norway most feminists and most feminist organizations hate BDSM. I did not stop to consider that this might be a problem here and not in the rest of the world. I to consider myself a feminist in that I am for equal rights. I should have worded my reply differently.

Trying to control someone's sexuality when it's not harming anyone is ridiculous and as a feminist, telling a people what they can and cannot like sexually is just more opression, which is exactly what feminists don't want. I am going off of the subject a little, I know, I'm just curious as to why she believes this.

My mother have never tried to control my sexuality, but she do not like it, and that is fine, she can have her opinion. I will have mine. I guess why she thinks as she do is that in her mind relationships should always be equal, even when both parties want an un equal relationship.

Respect is definitely a good thing but I don't think it means that we can't question eachother's or our own beliefs.

I have never said one should not question other's beliefs. But there is a way to question what other believe in a respectful and intelligent manner, and then there is the throwing shit method. I have several Atheist friends who manage to saw what they mean without calling religious pepole stupid, manipulated or other such things. And even if one disagree with someone, it is still quite possible to respect them.

Every emotion and thought we experience is neurons firing electrons down pathways in our brains. Emotions don't appear from no where, we experience stimulus and react to it. "Love" is the short hand term for the process that makes us experience love. It isn't how we know it's real but that doesn't mean that there isn't a process going on in the microscopic level in your brain and that it is this mystical thing that can't be explained. People find this really hard to accept for some reason.

You can explain attraction, but can you really explain the emotion love my chemicals? If you gave pepole drugs to release the chemicals in question, if such a thing was possible, would the following feeling really be love? It might be my romantic side, but for me, love is not just processes in my brain, it is something more.

In my opinion, people align themselves with religions to give themselves purpose because humans seem to be obsessed with making the universe revolve around us.

Perhaps that is so. My religion certainly give me purpose.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

And here I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum for debate between adults and not kindergarten fights my mistake.

That was your big mistake! If you wanted an adult (well, somewhat adult) debate, you would have joined the conversations in the Politics Forum where you could possibly have had a more meaningful discussion in Scientology, Creationist Scum, Christian Anarchism, Fanatics and Fundamentalist, One nation under God? or one of the other like-minded threads there.

All you've succeeded in doing here is taking a thread in the GENERAL FORUM that was silly to begin with and totally threadjack it off topic.

[Mir]

This thread is a constant reminder of two porn flicks I saw years ago called Bitchcraft and Whorecraft.

[SweetJane]

I disagree that your post demonstrates any such thing.

Have a book. Bakunin does it better.

My definition of religion is quite common.

Have a dictionary. I find that definitions from there are far more common.

Ah, so now it is capitalism.

Uh... yeah. I've been saying this for a while now. Capitalism allows for just as much irrationality as religion. The stock market crash in October is like the discovery that chemically people can be high on religion... for some reason people still beleive in capitalism like they believe in god.

Oh spare me born again Atheists. So damaged and ignorant that they can not accept that other believe differently than them. It is rather sad. I have spent many years considering religious subjects, but think what you will. If being an arrogant idiot make you feel good about yourself, then by all means.

That doesn't mean anything. You have an obvious inability to see how detrimental your way of thinking is on a global scale.

Off course the goal of capitalism is to exploit, if this is your big revelation then you are a little late to the party. It have always been about exploitation. Government however, how do you think a society would fare with no government, now laws? Do you think there be less exploitation then? Without rules it would be survival of the fittest, nothing else. Off course members of the government have their own agendas, but a society need leadership.

I can't beleive you haven't figured out you talking to an atheist anarcho-queer yet. Have a pamphlet.

"Chances are you have already heard something
about who anarchists are and what we are supposed
to believe. Chances are almost everything
you have heard is nonsense. Many people seem to
think that we anarchists believe in violence, chaos,
and destruction, that we are against all forms of
order and organisation, that we are crazed nihilists
who just want to blow everything up. In reality, nothing
could be further from the truth. We are simply
people who believe human beings are capable of
behaving in a reasonable way without having to be
forced to. It is really a very simple idea. But it's one
that the rich and powerful have always found
extremely dangerous."

Maybe I'm just a better person than you are. Society doesn't need leadership, it needs democracy and administration. When you think rationally, in a society where everyone is equal with no class or religion to devide them, the crime rates would drop dramatically. Most crimes are of necessity. Eliminate the necessity to steal to survive or to fit some kind of social norm. So, no, there would not be more exploitation under anarchist communalism.

I know there are things which are real, which can not be proved in a lab. Not everything can be dissected. That do not make something not real. You can not prove the existence of love, you can prove there are some chemicals in the brain that causes attracting, but you can not prove the existence of love, and yes most pepole know it is real.

Uh... your stepping all over your own feet. You just told me that you can chemically show the existance of love. But you don't want to admit that it's testable... did you think you could pull a Purloined Letter on me?

Have you ever read Heaven and Hell by Aldous Huxley? Why can't your experience be chemical, part of your own mind, and still be profound? Why does the experience have to include a diety to be any more important to you?

I am interested in BDSM, my mother is a feminist, she will never approve, but she do respect my choice.

Why the fuck does your mom know that about you?

I do not know how much more I can say.

Good, I'm getting tired of your non-arguments.

[Tiphareth]

This one seems to be going round in circles and will continue to do so until you realise that you are asking and answering the wrong question.
So again...it's not WHAT you believe but WHY you believe it that matters?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by FatGoth

So what you are looking for is not something to believe in, it is a big brother who will lay down the law for you instead of you laying down to law for yourself?

You are a god damned simpleton aren't you. If you want to believe in the boogy man and "self empowerment" through derivative make believe rituals, then have at it. Paganism is for spiritually passive pussies who desire to feel important because they seem to think some divine feminine aspects are looking out for their best interests. With no solidarity in the pagan community as to what is correct and what is not, you have no foundation for your faith. You're just grasping at dim witted ideas that suit your fancy because they suit your delusions at the moment.

Truths are facts. Truths are measurable.

Tell you what, tell me a ritual or spell you consider to be a truth. An actual ritual that gives you a desired result that can't be up to interpretation. Something that you know will work for EVERYONE. I know you can't and you're okay with that, which is sad. Your faith bares no fruit for the people around you. You're just playing to your fantasies of self grandeur. I can't even tell you the amount of insane fucks I've ran into claiming to be some kind of god or some kind of "fay" kin. Bullshit. Fart me a lightning bolt and then we'll talk.

There's nothing wrong with meditation and self introspection to find a courage to do the things you must do in life to get results, but it's a fucking fallacy to call it something lofty such as magick. Please. There are no miracle workers. It's all a bloody joke.

Christianity at least has the guts to say that Jesus is your savior and it's the only way to salvation. Yes, the burden of proof is on them and they look ridiculous about it all. But at least they're not passive pussies about their faith.

It's NOT okay to abide bad ideas when they're clearly bad ideas. I do not have to accept your faith or say that it's okay because then I would be giving credence to your madness and I'll be damned if I allow myself to be aligned with bullshit ideas that are clearly wishy washy.

[SweetJane]

I think it's funny that neither KontanKatite or I have even been hostile toward some of your actual practices.

I occasionally meditate when I have a stressful situation, and I put sigils in my artwork becasue they look cool and because it helps me focus on what I need to do to solve, or accept, my problems.

It's a matter of being hostile towards a lack of reason. Stop being so childish; pagans being persecuted. Whatever. Science has been persecuted since we had a concept of it because it challenges everything that authority has ever been based on.

A society based on lack of juddgement ends with people being persecuted and killed becasue they tell the truth.

[Tiphareth]

[quote=KontanKarite;572279] There are no miracle workers. It's all a bloody joke.

Christianity at least has the guts to say that Jesus is your savior and it's the only way to salvation. Yes, the burden of proof is on them and they look ridiculous about it all. But at least they're not passive pussies about their faith.

./QUOTE/

But Christianity is based on a miracle....without the belief in the resurrection the Christian faith is based solely on the teachings of another Galilean prophet. It's why those Christians who interpret the resurrection in metaphorical terms are seen as heretical to the mainsteam because it negates the whole basis of Christian belief. It's also partially why gnosticism was considered to be such a threat to the early Church.
The Christian does not have to 'prove' anything and similarly nor does the 'Wiccan'....they only have to 'believe' that their 'faith' has an impact on their lives and they would be poorer without it.
You speak about spells being non verifiable outside the experience of the individual who casts them but the same can be said of prayer. Once again it's not about whether they work or not but more about the belief that they work.

[Tiphareth]

The Christian Eucharist is based on the idea that the bread and wine become the literal body and blood of Christ through transubstantiation. For many it's a symbolic change, a representation, a simulacrum but there are those catholics who cannot receive because the belief in the literal change is so strong they are physically repulsed by the ingestion of the host and wine.
Viewed scientifically there is no change of course but that is irrelevant to the devout communicant...he believes in the 'miracle' of transubstantiation.

The point being that we can all believe in anything we want....some Lewis Carroll comes to mind....but it does not mean that any one mode of believing is somehow superior to the other.
Even believing in nothing is a statement of faith.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Tiphareth

Even believing in nothing is a statement of faith.

No its not. Its a statement of nonbelief, not belief. It requires no leap of faith to take things as they are and not have to create a god or believe that by waving a wand you can change things.

[KontanKarite]

[quote=Tiphareth;572285]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

There are no miracle workers. It's all a bloody joke.

Christianity at least has the guts to say that Jesus is your savior and it's the only way to salvation. Yes, the burden of proof is on them and they look ridiculous about it all. But at least they're not passive pussies about their faith.

./QUOTE/

But Christianity is based on a miracle....without the belief in the resurrection the Christian faith is based solely on the teachings of another Galilean prophet. It's why those Christians who interpret the resurrection in metaphorical terms are seen as heretical to the mainsteam because it negates the whole basis of Christian belief. It's also partially why gnosticism was considered to be such a threat to the early Church.
The Christian does not have to 'prove' anything and similarly nor does the 'Wiccan'....they only have to 'believe' that their 'faith' has an impact on their lives and they would be poorer without it.
You speak about spells being non verifiable outside the experience of the individual who casts them but the same can be said of prayer. Once again it's not about whether they work or not but more about the belief that they work.

If you fully believe that god would save you from impending doom and you pray about it, you either survive or you don't. Funny, the Christian justifies failed prayers as the will of God, while answered prayers are clearly evidence that God is real.

As for the Gnostics, they were fucking awesome. They at least understood that without the action of their own will and hands, NOTHING would get done.

Mankind takes action and creates results FASTER than God.