Emo problem

[darkness-creepshow]

PersephoneX i hope you dont just think you can beat up anyone becuase of moshing...lol moshing is bad, if people take martial arts for the rest of there life ill be impressed.

[Catch]

I thouht emo was grungy people that listen to music that barely qualifies as music. They also seem colorful with bad hygene. If they ever practiced martial arts, that doesn't make them Goth.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Well, but has this happened? A Victorian kid listening to real gothic music shooting people in his school.
Maybe it has, but I don't know about him.
Up till now, high school shootings related to the gothic subculture always ends up with just a guy that wore a trenchcoat and looked menacing.
Is he a goth? I don't think so. Until I see a goth make such a voluntary stupidity, then I can believe all goths are not intellectual. But, as for now, intellect defines goth just as musical tastes and fashion style.

How does intellect (the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination), have anything to relate with on musical tastes, or their sense of fashion? It makes no sense to assert that simply because you wear the clothes, and listen to the music, you do not possess lower then average intelligence. To assert then, that it defines Goth, just as much as musical tastes, and fashion style, can quite easily be used as a double-standard.

Someone who associates him/herself with the gothic culture, would be part of that culture, no? Even if it is somewhat of an offshoot (For example, instead of listening to Dead Can Dance or Sisters of Mercy, they listen to Meshugga and Cannibal Corpse), they can be accepted into the culture (Atleast, that has been my experience). Yet, if they commit something, such as a school shooting, there is suddenly an upsurge of difference, on how he/she wasn't actually part of the culture.

Then there's the general lack of fact, on what "Goth", actually is, as I have stated before. Some people will claim those who are on Vampire Freaks, are not goth, they are simply imitating Goth. Yet, to those on Vampire Freaks, they are as goth as they want to be, and to assert that because they are not part of "Your Standards", or they are not "Intellectual", seems a bit trivial, when it's simply your opinion, on what exactly it is.

What I'm trying to get at, is that it just seems like somewhat of a cheap excuse, to differentiate your culture, with someone who commits such an act.

[Catch]

You know there was this gal, when growing up, that didn't seem gothic at all. She had bleach blond hair, wore techno clothes, idolized Madonna and went to raves all the time. Still, she told me she was gothic. Then upon hearing her music, it was all hippie crap. NO ONE THINKS SHE IS GOTHIC.

Now on the other hand, I never say I am gothic (Except when making fun of myself and others). If anything, would say I am punk and listen to alternative music, yet most people say I am gothic.

So there you go. If I am gothic anyone is. Only recently have people figured out my style goes back to the punk scene. (Irritatingly, some think it is a little nazi looking.) I guess, the Clash and Franz Ferdinand are nazis now? NO! THEY ARE NOT.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Splintered

How does intellect (the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination), have anything to relate with on musical tastes, or their sense of fashion? It makes no sense to assert that simply because you wear the clothes, and listen to the music, you do not possess lower then average intelligence.

Precisely! You are saying someone wears the clothes and listens to the music and he's a goth. Being a part of a subculture by sole fashion style and musical taste is vain.
You are putting words in my mouth which are the opposite of what I'm saying. Wearing the clothes and litening to the music doesn't make you any smarter. THAT is why those two are not enough to ascertain yourself as a goth.

Originally Posted by Splintered

Someone who associates him/herself with the gothic culture, would be part of that culture, no?

Absolutely not.
Andrew Eldritch never liked being called a goth, yet you see Marilyn Manson's video "Tainted Love" and you'll see the word Goth more than once. So, who's the goth? The one who calls himself as one, or the one who, despite possessing gothic qualities, doesn't like calling himself a goth?

[Splintered]

This makes no sense to me.
So, you have to deny your goth, to actually be goth? (I'm definitely not putting words into your mouth this time, you're using it repetitively as an arguement.)

As for your Marilyn Manson V. Andrew Eldritch arguement, you're using a False Dilemma fallacy here. Who is to say either is more Goth then the other, based on anything more then opinion?

You are putting words in my mouth which are the opposite of what I'm saying. Wearing the clothes and litening to the music doesn't make you any smarter. THAT is why those two are not enough to ascertain yourself as a goth.

Alright, assuming this is true, it's an arbitrary standard, since intelligence can be argued, is arbitrary as well? How, might you ask? Well, intelligence in certain areas can differ. You can know everything about Quantum Mechanics, but this is rather meaningless in economics, etc. You can be dumb as a door-nail in mathematics, but you can be an incredible writer. Intelligence then, is arbitrary. Not only that, but arguing who is intelligent, and who isn't, is also arbitrary as well. Half of America falls below the average intelligence line. This is purely, just a statisitcal function, and no actual reflection on the actual character of the American people. The average intelligence could be an IQ of 140, on any major test. Yet, anyone who is 130-100, is quite intelligent on their own. Once again, it's arbitrary.

You are saying someone wears the clothes and listens to the music and he's a goth. Being a part of a subculture by sole fashion style and musical taste is vain.

Sure, it's vainn, but it is much more reliable then measuring intelligence, which is something we can not be very certain of. A musical and fashion sense can be repeatedly tested (And yes, I know people do change in their attitudes, so it can change, rendering the tests null, so for the sake of this arguement, I'm going to use the assumption the category of music, and style of dress, both fall under the category of goth, and for the duration of that time, X person meets both). Intelligence can't. So Goth, by that matter, is either incredibly arbitrary, or it's based purely on the music and fashion.

Now, before you start screaming "But arbitrary isn't bad", sure it's not. But, simply saying you're the only club in town, doesn't impede anyone else from actually being the only club in town. A great example of this would be a routine of Penn and Teller, where Penn and Teller both voted, on what they thought the sex of the rabbit was. This didn't actually change, what the sex was in the first place.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Don't confound intelligence with intellect.
Intellect is the capacity for rational or intelligent thought. And that can be easily recognized.

[Splintered]

Sure it can.
But it's also an arbitrary stance, as to how much one actually posseses.

Pyramid type thing, if you will. Say intellect can be measured. Someone has a higher capacity of intellect, then you. Does that make them any more goth then you are? (Not to assert that you are goth, just an example, because it's easier for me to use.)

[Godslayer Jillian]

In this case, it all comes back to what I said:
That not all smart people are goth, but all goths are smart people.
Maybe it's just me, that appreciates intellect above most other values, but, being not only fashion and musical culture, but also a literary one, I see the logic in that literate creatures are intellectual by definition.

[Splintered]

I don't.
My humourous citation of how that's fallicious: The Bible
My serious citation of how that's fallicious: Everyone who can type well.

Everyone who can type well, and respond to what they are asked, are literate. They can demonstrate the ability to read, and to write. Yet, not all of them, are intellectual. Then, you have those who claim they are more literate, then others. Does that make them any more intellectual? Not really. If I can argue logic and reason better then anyone else, but I have a poor vocabulary and grammar structure, and I am not very literate, but I have a high intellect (The capability to reason).

[Godslayer Jillian]

Well, I can see that we will constantly disagree with each other, anyways, but I will find someone a lot more goth if he knows his share of Wilde, Poe, and Frost.

[Splintered]

Yeah, we probably are.
I'm just special like that.

But, I don't see how knowing Wilde, Poe, and Frost, or even Milton, Shakespeare, or Carroll, should effect how goth someone is.

Besides, weren't you the one to point out that you should deny you're goth, to be goth? Then again, it's your perception, on another person, where it wouldn't really count, but still, the idea is there.

[Godslayer Jillian]

I never said denying being goth makes you one.
I said that claiming you are a goth doesn't make you one.
Not black doesn't equal white.
I was pointing out what's wrong with saying that claiming "gothiness" is what makes you a goth, and stated the example that Marilyn Manson calls himself and his band goth in the video Tainted Love, while Andrew Eldritch never claimed being a goth.

[Splintered]

No, black doesn't equal white, but grey has similiarities to both.

The thing I'm trying to get across is, claiming someone, who claims their goth, is not goth, doesn't actually make them, not goth. Once again, it's that Penn and Teller routine. You can debate all you want about the sex of the rabbit, but you can't actually change the sex of the rabbit.

So, for all we know, both Andrew Eldritch and Marilyn Manson, are both goth, and us debating it, doesn't change a thing. Hell, for all we know, Marilyn Manson might be more goth then Andrew Eldritch. (Put the torches down, it's just an example.) It's based, at best, on speculation.

[c130]

You can debate all you want about the sex of the rabbit, but you can't actually change the sex of the rabbit.

The problem with this is that it assumes the subject can only be one of a fixed number of possibilities. Gothness isn't a fixed one-way-or-the-other thing, so that analogy isn't helpful. To take your quote and accurately apply it to the question of "what is goth?", there would need to be an infinite number of other possible sexes for the rabbit to be.

[Slap Your Love]

Oh my, another rant humm?
I'm staying out of this one. -.-

[Splintered]

In which case c130, you've somewhat proven another one of my points.

It's based, at best, on speculation.

Would be the one. Since you posed that there must be an infinite number of sexes, then there must be, also, an infinite number of interpretations, which means any clear-cut definition is relative to the user. Therefore, anyone who claims they are goth, because there is an infinite number of interpretations, must be goth.

[abortedlife]

i told you guys it should always be about the music lol.


http://www.geocities.com/gothinasiax/pictures.html

those are from the local goth scene in manila, philippines.

just look at our playlists... THIS IS GOTH.

RUNESCHADOW'S PLAYLIST FOR SEPTEMBER

1. COCTEAU TWINS "Shallow Then Halo"

2. DAVID BOWIE "Ashes to Ashes"

3. STICKDOG "Betrayal"

4. GENE LOVES JEZEBEL "The Immigrant"

5. TUXEDOMOON "No Tears"

6. KATE BUSH "Running Up That Hill"

7. CINDYTALK "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face"

8. WOLFGANG PRESS "Forty Days and Thirty Nights"

9. NICO "The Sphinx"

10. FUNKER VOGT "The Killing Fields"

11. EVENTIDE "Is It Love That Dare Not Be?"

12. LYDIA LUNCH "13.13"

13. WIRE "A Touching Display"

14. SHADOW PROJECT "Holding You Close"

15. THE HOUSE OF LOVE "Christine"

16. GLORIOUS DIN "Water From The Temple"

17. CASUAL SANITY "Shelter From Her Eyes/Another Track 7" Single"

18. THE VENUS FLY TRAP "How The Mighty"

19. THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY OF THE INFANT JESUS "Art As Sacrament"

20. DANIELLE DAX "Cathouse"

21. CYAN REVUE "Dock 11"

22. PRESENT "Le Poison Qui Rend Fou"

23. RELEASE "Desecrate Skin"

RUNESCHADOW'S PLAYLIST FOR THE MONTH OF AUGUST

GOTHICA "Nothingness"

EVERY NEW DEAD GHOST "Miranda"

CHRISTIAN DEATH "Chimere desi dela"

LOVE CLUB "She's Holding Heaven's Hand"

AND ALSO THE TREES "Lady D'Arbanville"

THEM PHILISTINES "Typhoid Mary"

HAUJOBB "Maternal Instinct"

DIAMANDA GALAS "Gloomy Sunday"

PHALLUS DEI "Ordo Virtutum (O Satana)"

DANSE SOCIETY "Heaven is Waiting" (LP Version)

A HANDFUL OF SNOWDROPS "Gabrielle"

EXCES NOCTURNE "Dahlia Noire"

NIHIL AUT MORS "Infernis"

PART I "Black Mass"

KAREN FINLEY "Tales of Taboo"

TEKNAKULLER RAINCOATS "Kaleidoscope"

SWANS (JARBOE) "Love Will Tear Us Apart"

X'MAL DEUTSCHLAND "If Only"

A CERTAIN RATIO "And Then Again"

BARTOK "Insanity"

THE EMBRACE "Atlantis" (DEMO)

SHADOWPLAY "Shadowland"

NACHT SCHATTEN "Turn To Clay"

RUNESCHADOW'S PLAYLIST/TOP 13 FAVE SONGS FOR THE MONTH OF JULY

1. SKELETAL FAMILY - "Far and Near"
2. CONTROLLED BLEEDING - "Letters to the Life Cycle"
3. SNAKECORPS - "Look East for Eden"
4. ANGEL OF THE ODD - "Field of Shadows"
5. CALLING RAIN - "Laid in Ruins"
6. DHI - "Chemical Land Showdown"
7. VNV NATION - "Procession"
8. SLEEP CHAMBER - "Presence ov the Magis"
9. SHADOW OF FEAR - "Song and Dance"
10. THE BAND OF HOLY JOY - "Disgust"
11. CYCLIC AMP - "Him"
12. HE RU RA HA - "Valhalla"
13. SIOUXSIE AND THE BANSHEES - "The Lord's Prayer"

RUNESCHADOW'S PLAYLIST/FAVE TOP 13 SONGS FOR THE MONTH OF JUNE

1. CLAIR OBSCUR - "Victoire"
2. NOSFERATU - "Pathway of Flowers"
3. NECROSIS TREE - "Tree"
4. THE BONAPARTS - "Battle of Iena"
5. THE MIGHTY SPHINCTER - "In the Kingdom of Heaven"
6. SYLVIA'S GHOST - "My Little Shadow"
7. NEVA - "Luchald"
8. DEAD CAN DANCE - "Ulysses"
9. PRO MEMORIA - "The Scream"
10. SPK - "Invocation"
11. DIE LAUGHING - "Forever"
12. SAD LOVERS AND GIANT - "Man of Straw"
13. THE VEIL - "Manikin"

there are thousands of bands out tehre to enjoy and discover. that EMO thing is just a trend with only a few bands to support it. once the whole attention is shifted to another trend, those attention-seeking whores will simply give up and adapt to a new trend. that's all there is to it.

Goth on the other hand isn't just a fad or a phase, it sticks with you forever.

[Tindomiel]

I think emo-kids are cute. I just want to pinch their non-pudgy cheeks and ruffle their hairsprayed hair.
But... then I'd probably get a few odd looks from them. I guess I just have to stick to admiring them from a distance... *sigh*

[abortedlife]

i found the solution!!!!!!!!!

okay i'm already in the works for ARTIST PROFILES on my web community. and i plan it to be a Dark Music Community.

every band that wants a profile there will have to pay 20 bucks... in exchange for these features:

main page interview
random band pic+link on the main page
cd cover marquee that links to album reviews
aqua color in chat
main page announcement of tour schedules and other events
then in their profiles... they can choose from 10 professionally done templates
multi themed/skinned official mp3 player
upto 5 uploads
theyre own group (we call it sanctum)
plus the other upgrade features that are enjoyed by our Elite upgrade

yay! then the main page will be full of band reviews/interviews!

Guys, please watch out forthe EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH MICK MERCER
only on MYGOTHICHEART.COM!!!

so to all Emos, haha it's up to you to stay

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by abortedlife

i found the solution!!!!!!!!!
only on MYGOTHICHEART.COM!!!

Then post it at
https://www.gothic.net/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=10