Homophobia in metal

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I didn't say all metlaheads are homophobes. I said there is a great ammount of self-described "metalheads" who are homophobes.

And as for metal and goth, does anyone ELSE remember that goth, back in its forming days, was the antithesis to metal? Goths are usually quiet, introverted, introspective, poetic, and androgynous while metalheads are usually loud, outroverted, superficial, racist, and full of male-ego-centrism. They have nothing in common and it really does upset when some people think metal and goth have ANYTHING in common.

diagnosis;

Foot-In-Mouth disease.

curable, treatable, but the prognosis is clear. 20 C-C's of Ignorital... stat!!!


P.S.
I'm not a doctor, I just play one on... uhh, in my trailer...

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by Vako

diagnosis;

Foot-In-Mouth disease.

curable, treatable, but the prognosis is clear. 20 C-C's of Ignorital... stat!!!


P.S.
I'm not a doctor, I just play one on... uhh, in my trailer...

I'm over my generalizations now. Now it's your turn.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy metal. I'm just very frustrated by the hypocrisy of people. I needed to get that out, I suppose, and remember that assholes exist in EVERY facet of society, no matter how open-minded their ancestors were. Hillbilly punks, Klansmetallers, and Wankstas are just another broken building block in modern society.

My argument is put to rest, and I'll be the wiser for it.

If Metal stands for anything, it stands for complete freedom of expression. Therefore, you will find all ideologies and points of view expressed in Metal. The best thing to do is to ignore the ones you don't agree with, and search out the bands that you do agree with.

Did I mention I love Goth? :-)

[Draconysius]

Originally Posted by Vako

If Metal stands for anything, it stands for complete freedom of expression. Therefore, you will find all idiologies and points of view expressed in Metal. The best thing to do is to ignore the ones you don't agree with, and search out the bands that you do agree with.

Did I mention I love Goth? :-)

That's what I just said. My opinion changed. I realized there's a good share of assholes and intellectuals in every subculture.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

That's what I just said. My opinion changed. I realized there's a good share of assholes and intellectuals in every subculture.

Well, I hope you don't think I'm one of the assholes. I mean, we're strangers and all, but better to be friendly, I guess.

[Frankenscott]

There's assholes and cool people everywhere, I try to assume everyone is cool and make them prove me wrong... One leaves themself wide-open for disappointment by doing this but I would rather embrace an asshole and find out the hard way, than miss an opportunity to expand my stupid little world. You guys have done just that for me an I'm glad I joined this forum. So, thanks to everyone

[Puppet Master]

Interesting topic. I see your points, a large amount of facists, and gernerlly not nice people can be found in metal. Then again these people thrive in every subculture.

Every facet of society has its black sheep.

I myself am bisexual, and also am possibly a transexual (though this part of me is still questioning), I am originally a metalhead, though now have been pulled into gothrock and industrial. Then again my clothing style has always been in the victorian athestetic =/.

Again I have now gone off topic.

Anyway the point though has been stated by many others allready, is that each subculture caries with it a reflection of society within itself. You have the interlectuals (who in there own circle, have there own arseholes), you have the elitists, and you have the downright not very nice people =/, oh you also have some decent people to.

[Elliot]

Also, a lot of times, homophobia and racism are developed long before the sufferer finds himself in the position to express his views.

[Vyusher]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

I didn't say all metlaheads are homophobes. I said there is a great ammount of self-described "metalheads" who are homophobes.

You said you had lost respect for metalheads.

Originally Posted by Draconysius

And as for metal and goth, does anyone ELSE remember that goth, back in its forming days, was the antithesis to metal? Goths are usually quiet, introverted, introspective, poetic, and androgynous while metalheads are usually loud, outroverted, superficial, racist, and full of male-ego-centrism. They have nothing in common and it really does upset when some people think metal and goth have ANYTHING in common.

Because no movements ever change and everything in every movement is polarized and absolute. This "usually" business is still an unfair and hypocritical generalization to make when you're bitching about metalheads generalizing.
Interestingly, they have several things in common; they are both music; they are both made by human beings, with occasional drum machines; both took a good deal of influence, though not the majority of it, from punk; both have been the victim of social prejudice; both are frequently associated with similar aesthetics; both have been known to make extremely heavy use of effects in music; both are often thought to have, whether or not they actually have one notwithstanding, a dark tone or mood. Just to think off the top of my goddamned head.
In my professional opinion, this isn't a case of foot in mouth disease, doctor. It's a case of ignorance brought on by enough bullshit to make this patient fucking ceptic.

[Temptation]

Since basically everything else has already been said, I'm going to make my response short and sweet.

People are people and everyone has their own opinion.
It's true alot of metalheads might be homophobic but, their are some (possibly a good handfull) who are not.

That being said, I add myself to the list of none homophobic metalheads.

[JCC]

Stereotypes are baaaad.

I'm a metalhead... I think.

And to say homophobia is something most metalheads share is dumb. Rob Halford of Judas Priest is gay, for one thing, and Judas Priest are one of the most important metal bands.

Not to mention there's something very homoerotic about metal, tight leather, men getting shirtless on stage. Not to mention glam metal. So yeah, I'd say that any metalheads who are homophobic are dumb.

[Splintered]

I'm a metalhead.

I've been one, I am one, and I will continue to be one.

From Burzum and Behemoth, Kreator and Sodom, Dark Tranquillity and Bolt Thrower, etc, etc, etc. I could name off bands until I am blue in the face.

I'm also bisexual.

Every metalhead I've met, usually focuses around the "Left" spectrum of politics. Meaning, they're either Democrats (Rare), Minarchists (More common), or Anarchists (Bread and butter). Everyone I know, supports homosexuality, or is homosexual themselves.

Racism, Intolerance, Homophobia, etc. is something that I'm aware of in metal. At least, it's one of those things, where I've heard it exists. I've heard there are homophobic and racist bands. Yet, in my whole time I've listened to metal, I've never seen it.

[the_dude]

my cd/record collection is all death metal and rap. but i'm not a metalhead.

however, when i see a guy or a girl walking around with a 'death-hawk?' i can't help but laugh. i'm not sorry either.

[maggot]

Deathhawks have nothing to do with metal.

[the_dude]

dude up top mentioned deathhawks. he started the topic. therefore they must have something to do with the conversation.

what the hell is a deathhawk anyway?

[maggot]

Lol.

It's a wider-than-usual mohawk that's teased up to look messy (Sometimes with tendrils in the front), rather than fanned or spiked.

Think Johnny Slut.

[TLZ]

I am a metalheads, and let's get one thing straight: not all of us are like this.

There are many explanations for your experiences. You must remember that people using the expression "gay" deosen't mean they're homophobic, it's just as much used to point out effeminacy. (I've even heard bi's using it about things.) Metalheads could of thrown these either because of their over-masculine ways and therefore not accepts effeminacy, or they're just expressing "good" old fascioned goth-hate from the 80s. (If I'm not mistaken it was first in the 90s metal and goth became "friends".) Because of metal's over-masculine-tendency, I've also witnessed misogyny there. Sad stuff.

More or less all subcultures has idiots who turns thing around in a wrong manner. Emo have people who cut themself for social status. Punk have people who use their identity as an excuse for being assholes. What a lot of this people have in common har that they do stuff like this to come off as "cool" in their envirmoment: in other words; are posers.

Some of the goth-hate is also simply ignorance. Usually form getting the wrong impressions of goths because of poser-goths and stereotypes.

But as said, metal isn't this bad. It's just that on the internet you see alot of more to the idiots. In Bergen in Norway the goth and metal community is very overlapsed and you'll very often find goths hanging out with metalheas. (Actually alot of different alternative people ranging form punks to, goths, to proggers(not sure about this one), to rockabillies are very friendly towars eachother. Seems like the idea that uniting against the mainstream culture is better than "fighting" eachother..)

Anyway, I would like to defend metal and metal culture. I claim that at it's true core this culture is really good. YES, metal IS about aggression, rebellion and darkness. But it's not meaningsless aggression, to me it seems like a lot of metalheads just have agression inside them, metal-music is the perfect outlet for this. (and a much better outlet than let's say violence.) Metal is about rebellion, but not in the direct way as punk. More rebellion of the type "go your own way".

On MetalStorm.ee forum there's a lot of idiot-metallers(and some very very clever ones). I actually had to defend women's right to be withing metal. So alot of metalheads got it wrong. (I got a lot of praise from metallers for doing it though.) Metal is about tearing down uneccery rules. Metal is about indiviudalsim. Metal is about using your mind to think for yourself and not follow the crows like a sheep.

On one way metal-music is very primitive. At first glance it might see as a more noisy kind of rock, but it's soo much more. It's wide genre. And yes, you'll find straightforward agressive rebellion in it(black metal), but you can also find music rebelling in other ways. Such as avant garde metal bands using weird melodies and styles.

About the metal-for-white-people. I haven't seen much to this. Yes, there is an national socialist black metal style, but most metallers don't approve or like it. And most of those who like the music reject the message.

A period of time I distanced myself from metal because I witnessed to many idiotic metalheads(same happend with prog rock for me as well), but I decided that it was stupid to let the "idiots win", so I put away my plans to cut my hair.

I hope that peopel here won't get the wrong impression of metal just because some of them got the wrong impression of goth.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

"ELECTRONIC TRONIC SUPER SONIC SONIC"
By Cradle of Meticallica Slayer (an underground band among: BRUTAL, BLOODY, SLAUGTERING, HEADBANGING, SUICIDE-ENCOURAGING, FUCKING RAGING HOLY SHIT THIS TRULY IS Metal genre)

tHAT is homophobic metal.

[PersephoneX]

There's only one real metal club in my town...and it’s my haunt on the weekends. We're a pretty tolerant bunch, and there's no issue as far as sexual orientation goes. It’s frequented predominantly by guys, but there's never really any unpleasantness towards our small gay community. My girlfriend and I were comfortable there and there are several gay guys that hang out there.
One night, we had a bit of an issue with a group of jocks that stumbled in there, already drunk…yelling for the DJ to play Metallica or something crap like that…anyway…they started a fight with one of the guys for wearing a skirt and corset, they threw a couple of nasty names at him, and he left…Its like that everywhere…but I personally think jocks are the problem…

[Puppet Master]

I wouldnt say its just jocks really. Its just that no matter what culture you occupy there will always be ones whose political views differ in the extreme, advocating acts which we find disgracefull.

It is also a mixture of peer pressure and influences as one grows up, there was a case of a closeted gay man who beat up a gay friend of his with his homophobic mates, mearly because he could not admit who he was, and also because he did not want to be an outsider.

Even in the gay and lesbian culture there is hate towards groups, I have seen both racism, and hate towards transgenderds.

No group is pure, there are always ones who believe there purpose is to press there own views onto others, and with force is nessecary.

We just have to live with it, and stamp out the individual cases when we see them.

[PersephoneX]

Its hard to teach people when they don't want to learn...Stamping out individual cases may need more than just subtle persuasion...Maybe a boot to the head might help?

[Death]

Hail All!
Just found this thread/forum through a Google search, and thought that I would add my tuppence (And 16Kbs!) worth:

Firstly...A quick introduction (As this is my first post): I am a MetalHead, as devoted to the cause as I can possibly be. I do enjoy bands like BAL-SAGOTH, Emperor, Slayer, Cannibal Corpse, and others. I also enjoy a lot of Goth music (Usually the more industrial stuff.) along with various other forms of music. I hail from Farnborough in southern England, am currently unemployed (Applying for a job with South West Trains soon), spend far too much time on the Internet for my own good, and am notorious for posting huge messages in forums that often exceed the 10kb mark! :-D

To clarify on a few comments about Metalheads above: Most Metalheads (Myself included) generally try to be nice, helpful and amicable people. There are obviously exceptions to any rule however, and it is a sad fact that there are some who are unhealthily "l33t", who view other communities (And even other sub-genres of Metal) with distain and a "not worth knowing" attitude. I do not usually generalise, but the latter are more often than not a small percentage of Black Metal fans who obviously took the lyrics of Varg Vikernes far too seriously, and can usually be identified by a comprehensive knowlege of the wrong side of Nazism. However, I would not tar all Black Metal and Burzum fans with this brush - If nothing else, I myself am mostly into Black Metal, I support BAL-SAGOTH like it's going out of fashion, and at some point I do plan to listen to a bit of Burzum to see if I enjoy the music - But hold the white supremist stuff...That's something that I'll be ignoring! :-D

Just for completion and "balancing out" of my comments above, I have found that the same thing does apply in the Goth community occasionally. About 95% of Goths that I have met here and there (I go out down Slimelight most weeks) are very pleasant and good to know people, but I have run into a few who took an instant dislike and distain of me for no apparent reason whatsoever. Personally, I would say that it's a two-way thing.
If you're pleasant and amicable towards me, then I'll be the same towards you!

Anyway...Back onto the topic in hand: I also happen to be homosexual. It's something that I am not entirely happy about or comfortable with, considering the kind of community that I am a member of...But as it's one of those things that cannot be changed at all, I've come to realise that the only thing that I can do is to live with it and be happy. Indeed in recent times, I have become increasingly more comfortable with and more open about what I am (Anyone who knows me at Slimelight can testify to this!), and I'm almost at the stage now where I'm going to say to myself "F*** this pussyfooting around! I'm going to become wholly open about what I am...And if people don't like it, then that's their problem!" - And actually mean it! :-)

As you can well imagine, I (And other gay MetalHeads that I know) have the cards stacked against us as far as the main Metal community goes. Although Metal itself is not intentionally homophobic, it is one of those communities (The only other one that I can think of being Rap) where being "gay" is normally frowned upon. The stereotypical Burzum-esque view is that being "Metal" is about being "Strong", being a "Warrior", and being one who seduces young maidens without equal...And this view appears to have permeated through the main Metal community as a whole. Therefore, a male Metalhead who presented themselves as all of the above, but with a boyfriend in his arms as opposed to a young, virginal woman would be considered by many to be degenerate at the very least. This is the very simple explanation as to why you never see openly gay Metalheads around and about nowadays.

Fortunateley, (Like society in general) times are starting to change in the Metal community. Apparently, there was a group of men walking around Wacken Open Air festival last year wearing pink t-shirts with "Wacken Fags" printed on the front (And, ironically, a Dragonforce logo on the back! :-D), and although I did not see them with my own eyes, I doubt that several people from four different countries (And different parts of the Wacken campsite) could be mistaken and yet give such consistant information. Additionally there is now a gay Metalheads forum where I and at least one other user of this forum are members. I am currently in the process of planning and building a Goth/Metalhead equivalent of Gaydar (A popular but very stuck-up gay dating site.), and I myself do intend to "come clean" about myself to all very soon (Although informing the Immortal Gods of Black Metal; BAL-SAGOTH will be the hardest part for me, considering how I look up to them.) and hopefully do for the 00's what Rob Halford did for the 80's...Although minus the very dodgy Leather gear!

Anyhow...I've rambled on enough about this and that now, so I'm going to shut-up. One final question that I do have though is: How is homosexuality percieved in the Goth community? I'm just curious mainly, but I'm also interested to see where the similarities and differences between Metal and Goth lie.

Farewell... >:-)
>> Death <<

[Underwater Ophelia]

Sadly, most of the metal fans I know have this huge macho thing going on. They might actually be homophobic, or they might just act like it because they feel like they have to.

Oh, and to Death, in my experience, most goths are readily accepting of lesbians, gays, and bi-sexuals. Unfortunately, on the same token, it's considered cool to be bi-sexual, so people lie about it with an enraging frequency.