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| General General questions and meet 'n greet and welcome! |
06-19-2007, 08:06 PM
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#26
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blountsville, AL
Posts: 2,619
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I'm going to touch on an unlikely stereotype: that goths hate to be labeled. Many goths AND baby bats I know claim that they dislike labels, but I think the very idea of such is preposterous.
I mean, your name is a label and it'd be awfully hard to get your attention without having a name to be called. They are index to thoughts and personality. 
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06-19-2007, 08:16 PM
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#27
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Draconysius
I'm going to touch on an unlikely stereotype: that goths hate to be labeled. Many goths AND baby bats I know claim that they dislike labels, but I think the very idea of such is preposterous.
I mean, your name is a label and it'd be awfully hard to get your attention without having a name to be called. They are index to thoughts and personality. |
Where you reffering to me? I am not saying this to be stereotypical, but I find that labels are quite innaccurate and unescesary. I don't mind them; but I can not use one on myself for I do not fit in to any stereotype. The truth is, nobody does. Everyone is an individual, and you can't fit in to the exact stereotype of a label or else you probably [I guess there are few who do] are not being completeley true to yourself, or considered a poser.
In my personal experience of life [only 16 years of it!] I have found that labels don't work in my area. My friends, and I, and actually most people I know, don't fit in to any type of specific stereotype or label. I mean, I don't even think about them... I just don't O_o Like if someone were to say "Is that girl a prep" I'd be like "Well what is your definition of prep?" Labels are usually different to everyone, or off, and just... I don't know. Maybe it is just me, but they just don't do it for me. I feel weird calling myself something. I just go "er... I'm human? I like a lot of stuff... I don't like a lot of stuff...?" lol. I do have a general label I would put on myself if I were asked to... But usually I don't feel comfortable using them...
You make a good point though, maybe I will open up to labels more! ^^; lol
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-19-2007, 08:21 PM
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#28
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blountsville, AL
Posts: 2,619
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeathChii
Where you reffering to me? I am not saying this to be stereotypical, but I find that labels are quite innaccurate and unescesary. I don't mind them; but I can not use one on myself for I do not fit in to any stereotype. The truth is, nobody does. Everyone is an individual, and you can't fit in to the exact stereotype of a label or else you probably [I guess there are few who do] are not being completeley true to yourself, or considered a poser.
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Then again, "individual" is a label as well. But, let's consider... music-subcultural-labels like goth, emo, punk, indie, etc. are not subjective. The person being referred to as such needs to be quite familiar with that specific type of music. But other labels, like "prep" or "slut" are completely subjective. I might see someone as a "slut", while you might see them as a "flirt". So I guess there are two types of labels, and it is fine IMO to label yourself under type one, but rather degrading to label yourself under type two. Gah... this is confushing.
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06-19-2007, 08:25 PM
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#29
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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How about the stereotype that we don't mingle with normal people?
Sometimes people ask me questions related to that.
Of course, that would be very idiotic. I'd rather take a smart prep than a goth lacking a self-identity (I'd say that's an oxymoron, but there must be some people that identify themselves and are identified as goth, and still lack a self-identity)
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"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
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Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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06-19-2007, 08:26 PM
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#30
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Draconysius
Then again, "individual" is a label as well. But, let's consider... music-subcultural-labels like goth, emo, punk, indie, etc. are not subjective. The person being referred to as such needs to be quite familiar with that specific type of music. But other labels, like "prep" or "slut" are completely subjective. I might see someone as a "slut", while you might see them as a "flirt". So I guess there are two types of labels, and it is fine IMO to label yourself under type one, but rather degrading to label yourself under type two. Gah... this is confushing.
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lol the thing about labels is it differs from person to person. So how can I really say I am a part of something, when I am seen as something different to everyone? I have nothing against them... but they just cause strange confusion O_o I mean, I will say I listen to the lovely Siousxie, and one might say "Oh, you are in to gothic music?", while someone else might say "You're such a poser! You're dressed like a goth and you don't even listen to Cradle of filth! Who the hell is Siousxie?" and someone else might say "EW!! She's wearing all black! EMOOO!!"
Like... gaaah... In my understanding of Labels, yes, I do have one for myself; but how can I go around saying I am such thing, when to others I may be something completeley different? I am who I am to my knowledge of what one can be. lol. Or I'm just human... It's just easier to say that. =P
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-19-2007, 08:44 PM
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#31
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blountsville, AL
Posts: 2,619
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeathChii
lol the thing about labels is it differs from person to person. So how can I really say I am a part of something, when I am seen as something different to everyone? I have nothing against them... but they just cause strange confusion O_o I mean, I will say I listen to the lovely Siousxie, and one might say "Oh, you are in to gothic music?", while someone else might say "You're such a poser! You're dressed like a goth and you don't even listen to Cradle of filth! Who the hell is Siousxie?" and someone else might say "EW!! She's wearing all black! EMOOO!!"
Like... gaaah... In my understanding of Labels, yes, I do have one for myself; but how can I go around saying I am such thing, when to others I may be something completeley different? I am who I am to my knowledge of what one can be. lol. Or I'm just human... It's just easier to say that. =P
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The thing is here, musical labels isn't subjective. They can be mislabeled, but no one can just change their definition at any time. This is because music is set in stone, it has its history, and surprisingly enough, its own rules.
We COULD just leave musical labels open to interpretation, but that would make it VERY hard to find new bands to like. Want to hear something heavy? Good bloody luck 'cause as far as anyone knows, Nickelback could be "heavy" and Insane Clown Posse could be "groovy". Music NEEDS concrete labels, or it all gets jumbled together in one big clusterfuck. Am I right?
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06-19-2007, 08:48 PM
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#32
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Draconysius
The thing is here, musical labels isn't subjective. They can be mislabeled, but no one can just change their definition at any time. This is because music is set in stone, it has its history, and surprisingly enough, its own rules.
We COULD just leave musical labels open to interpretation, but that would make it VERY hard to find new bands to like. Want to hear something heavy? Good bloody luck 'cause as far as anyone knows, Nickelback could be "heavy" and Insane Clown Posse could be "groovy". Music NEEDS concrete labels, or it all gets jumbled together in one big clusterfuck. Am I right?
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lol Well I have abseloutley no problem with labeling music! Just labeling people =]
Music labels are great lol, but I don't like supporting the fact that you have to dress a certain way to act a certain way, or act a certain way to listen to certain music, or listen to certain music to dress a certain way... etc. Just be yourself you know?
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-19-2007, 08:56 PM
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#33
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Blountsville, AL
Posts: 2,619
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeathChii
lol Well I have abseloutley no problem with labeling music! Just labeling people =]
Music labels are great lol, but I don't like supporting the fact that you have to dress a certain way to act a certain way, or act a certain way to listen to certain music, or listen to certain music to dress a certain way... etc. Just be yourself you know?
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Well, I explained that because certain musical labels apply to people too. I mean, a "punk rocker" obviously has GOT to listen to punk rock.
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06-19-2007, 09:01 PM
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#34
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Draconysius
Well, I explained that because certain musical labels apply to people too. I mean, a "punk rocker" obviously has GOT to listen to punk rock. |
lol yeah... no, I understand your logic completeley... it's just difficult sometimes because a lot of people listen to a variouty of music, although they usually find one which they follow more-so [culture and style], sometimes they don't you know? I duno... I've confused myself lol. I don't mind labels, or being labeled, or labeling myself; but I ofently don't feel comfortable using them. So, I just prefer not to =P
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 12:08 AM
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#35
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,092
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It's so nice to see people discussing this, and not arguing it ^^ I think labels could be very useful, if people treated them as concrete definitions, and not subjective things. But, as they aren't... you have to use them around people who knows what you're talking about.
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06-20-2007, 12:15 AM
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#36
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jax-FL
Posts: 106
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DeathChii, I think you are confusing labels with stereotypes. Or rather stereotypes with labels.
A label usually has a definite/finite meaning where as stereotypes are subjective. Hence where you get:
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I mean, I will say I listen to the lovely Siousxie, and one might say "Oh, you are in to gothic music?", while someone else might say "You're such a poser! You're dressed like a goth and you don't even listen to Cradle of filth! Who the hell is Siousxie?" and someone else might say "EW!! She's wearing all black! EMOOO!!"
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A label is something people use to group themselves with other like minded people or to stay away from people who are not like minded ( or they may just be prejudice). Sure a label can get warped and a person or group of people can fit it to their ideals.
Labels I tend to think of as whatever your sub-culture/s is/are. Religions and philosophies you may follow are also labels.
I tend to think of labels as positive things and stereotypes as bad things. So maybe I'm not correct on this and it's just my view point with little to no true foundation in reality. Considering the way so many people think, I think it may be the latter. :/
But I've found that by saying "Yes, I am gothic" I get positive responses, people want to talk to me. Where as when I tried to deny it I've found that I would get harassed. I've noticed I react the same way to other people and that other people react similar with other people.
In fact online I had this thing with a few "emo" adults on another forum I frequent. One of them flat out said "Yeah I'm emo" and I engaged in a conversation with her about how the sub-culture came about. The other kept saying "Arghh I HATE LABELS! I'm not emo! I'm not a scene kid either!" and just kept on going on about how horrible labels were. After a few weeks of this she finally said "Yeah, I'm emo. I don't like labels, but I AM EMO." And I also engaged her in conversation about the history of the emo sub-culture and we got a long a whole better, even shared some make up tips ( for that is true feminine bonding). That may make me sound like a real bitch, but I noticed that others on the forum reacted exactly the same way to these two individuals.
Has anyone else seen similar episodes?
Again, I may be wrong on how I've chosen to define and perceive these two words.
And I hope I don't regret pressing the submit button. >.<
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06-20-2007, 12:24 AM
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#37
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,092
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Don't be so un-confident. I actually think dividing the two into label/stereotype is more accurate, really.
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06-20-2007, 12:36 AM
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#38
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jax-FL
Posts: 106
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Well it's late; un-confidence and stupidity seem to be abundant when the poster is tired.
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06-20-2007, 03:45 AM
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#39
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: England.
Posts: 111
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According to godhatesgoths.com, we all eat babies, **** cats - I'm not making this up, I swear - drink each other's urine (no offence, you guys, but no thanks), drink the blood of wheelchair users and have lots of orgies.
I'm worried.
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06-20-2007, 03:51 AM
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#40
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,332
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I'm worried too. Where's the orgies I've supposedly missed?
anyway, regarding the label vs stereotype, doesn't the two go hand in hand? You label someone or yourself, and as an effect you get the stereotypical traits (seen from the "normal" worlds viewpoint that is) with the label whether one likes it nor not. i.e goths wear black and eat kittens, emos unconciously try to be overly emotional etc.
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Wasted forever, on speed, bikes and booze.
"Meow. Mew. Mrow. Maow? Miaox." - Lovely Delkaetre speaks cat.
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06-20-2007, 08:04 AM
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#41
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Exactly. So I don't like stereotypes, and I dont mind labels, but the people stick the two together. I can label myself, but I don't like saying "I'm a gippie" [haha gothic hippie =P] and people will say "So you eat babies and smoke pot?" I know who I am... I just don't feel comfortable saying it. I'd rather just be myself and people can label me however they feel is nescessary... Sometimes they are wrong... sometimes they are right... bleh... I don't really care that much =P
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 08:10 AM
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#42
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a black hole with a black moon
Posts: 2,658
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Good goth...I think it's best we ignore stereotypes. Most of the crap on the internet is obviously a joke. But it's cruel, and really getting old how they see our subculture in stereotypes. I think we should reframe from focusing on stereotypes. I wouldn't worry about what ignorant people think. We should teach only those who are smart enough and willing enough to listen.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
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"I think in some way I wanted it to end, even if it meant my own destruction."
-Jeffrey Dahmer
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06-20-2007, 08:13 AM
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#43
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne
Good goth...I think it's best we ignore stereotypes.
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That's what I'm saying x] And labels are basically stereotyping [most of the time anyway] so... let's just ignore them all! w00t.
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 08:16 AM
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#44
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a black hole with a black moon
Posts: 2,658
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Guhmmm...I said to ignore STEREOTYPES other people accuse of doing. Such as blood drinking and stealing the Easter Bunny's eggs. But words are labels essantiall, really. Ignoring labels will just isolate us from self awareness. To a certain extent I'll ignore what people say. If it's a redneck who has no education, I'll ignore. If it's a passerby whose curious I'll educate them. Isolating who we are will only encourage their bigotry.
Goth Forever
__________________
"I think in some way I wanted it to end, even if it meant my own destruction."
-Jeffrey Dahmer
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06-20-2007, 08:25 AM
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#45
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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I don't know. I guess you guys have never done it to really understand. I've never really labeled anyone unless they wanted me to. Unless someone says "Hi, I'm a prep." I won't even think of the sort. I've labeled myself, but what do I care to run around and yell it out to everyone? I just... don't... really... use them. I don't mind them. I don't. I use them sometimes, but not very often O_o. I can't think of more then 4 people I know that I could label as something... I guess if I think about it I could, but I don't normaly think about it. You guys probably think I am lying or something... but I'm not... I just don't label people... I don't even think about labels. I just... make friends? I've never ever ever called someone a "Prep, jock, JAP...etc" the only time I've thought of someone as a "hippie" or "goth" is if they told me they were one. The ONLY label I use [in my daily life] is "streight edge", "druggie" and "pothead" xD; Yeah I know it's horrible lol. That's the only way I label people on things they ACTUALLY do. ... I can't label a person because I don't even know what the labels are based off of really... I can say "She looks punk" but how do I know she is? I just... I don't know... I just don't think about them =\
Sorry for the rant... I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts... but I just don't really think about labels. I don't ignore them, I'm not oblivious of them, they just aren't a part of my thoughts and observations... if you get what I am saying??? O_o;
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 08:28 AM
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#46
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a black hole with a black moon
Posts: 2,658
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Good goth again...goth should not be in the mix of 'jocks,' etc. because those are just school terms. It's quite obvious Goth is existent, unlike the JOCK. Goth has a foundation of music, art, and identity. To me the only real label is a label. Plus, Jock lacks real identity.
Goth Forever
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"I think in some way I wanted it to end, even if it meant my own destruction."
-Jeffrey Dahmer
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06-20-2007, 08:36 AM
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#47
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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I'm sorry =\ I never said I had anything against goth? I consider myself one as well... I'm just saying that I don't feel comfortable telling other people and have them create a stereotypical image of me [even if it's the right one] that I listen to certain music and act a certain way, and if I do something out of their spectrum I'd seem like a poser to them. Just get to know me. You'll probably realize I'm goth anyway... ><
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 08:42 AM
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#48
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In a black hole with a black moon
Posts: 2,658
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Good goth  DeathChii I only misunderstood what you were saying It's quite alright. Never can get angry at you.
Goth Forever
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"I think in some way I wanted it to end, even if it meant my own destruction."
-Jeffrey Dahmer
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06-20-2007, 08:44 AM
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#49
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In between the gods of time
Posts: 1,334
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lol it's ok =P;
It's easy to misunderstand me... I'm really bad at explaining myself O_o; I'm very complex...
__________________
To the somethingness
Which prevents the nothingness
Like Homer's wild boar
From trashing this way and that
Its white tusks
Through human beings
Like crackling stalks
And to nothing less
I offer this suffering of my father
"The Offering" - Stan Rice
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06-20-2007, 09:47 AM
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#50
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Jax-FL
Posts: 106
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne
Guhmmm...I said to ignore STEREOTYPES other people accuse of doing. Such as blood drinking and stealing the Easter Bunny's eggs. But words are labels essantiall, really. Ignoring labels will just isolate us from self awareness. To a certain extent I'll ignore what people say. If it's a redneck who has no education, I'll ignore. If it's a passerby whose curious I'll educate them. Isolating who we are will only encourage their bigotry.
Goth Forever
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Thank you, Vyvian, for posting what I was trying to spew out last night in such a small and condensed post. <3
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The Council of Days - traditional goth rock
