Is This Real? (WARNING VERY SAD AND GRAPHIC!!) - Page 2

Disfunction · 10-05-2005, 02:49 PM

It's rather disappointing that we can identify a plot of land with a specific set of values. A culture with a distinct set of stereotypes. A people with a rigid state of mind. Honestly, if you feel it's necessary to hate a group of people, by all means, go right ahead.

However, to make a variety of generalizations when you've never been to the country is horribly ignorant. If you have a problem with foreign policy, etc. that's purely a concern of the government, not the people subject to it... and for those that have been to the country and entertain hostility all the same, generalizing and stereotyping entire groups of people won't get you anywhere.

I find topics like this particularly offensive because I'm of French decent. I'm a mutt, but French is definitely right in there with the rest of it. I'm content to listen to people joke about the French and their white flags, the Germans and their Naziism, the Irish and their alcoholism, and Canadians and their over-liberal use of the word "Eh," the Dutch and their... well... being Dutch... But once people start tossing words around like "hate," and once people start to take a more serious stance against an entire group of people is when I call bullshit and draw the line.

Jokes are fine when exchanged in a humourous context. Jokes are fine in other contexts, even. Where the line gets really skewed is when I find myself seeing people that I respect make judgements of an entire culture and an entire history and an entire way of life when they have trash piling up in their own backyard.

So fine, there are problems with the French, at least in a context of stereotypes and even the government. I'll stand by that and nod in agreement. I'll say the same towards the Americans, the Canadians and any other country on this earth of ours.

That doesn't give an excuse to draw the line to hate. That doesn't give an excuse for intolerance. The people that are doing these things, regardless of their nationalities, are to blame. There are American Christians that had a desire to bomb a particular mosque in Jerusalem in order to bring about armegedon and the second coming of Christ. That doesn't mean that all Christians nor all Americans much less all American Christians are off their fucking rockers.

So please, people. I know you have the capacity to practise tolerance, and I have absolutely no trouble with people expressing their distaste for the French, or Canadians, or Americans or any other nation in general, but come on. Let's not resort to hate.

edible_eye · 10-05-2005, 03:01 PM

disfunction -

thanx. the word "distaste" is much more appropriate. i have extreme distaste for the french, as a people.

"hate" IS too strong a word, especially when one-on-one i can find myself genuinely appreciating individuals. thanx for bringing me back to earth.

Disfunction · 10-05-2005, 03:05 PM

Not a problem, Edible. It's my job, as a Canadian.

*shifty eyes*

AlKilyu · 10-05-2005, 03:32 PM

Yeah the tongue was placed very firmly in the cheek when I made the title. There was a time here when people didn't take shit so serious.

Still not a huge fan of them. Oh well, at least they aren't those damn Dutch. ^_^

Disfunction · 10-05-2005, 06:56 PM

My response wasn't to the title. It was to later content in this thread....must be the Iroquoi in me... Can't understand you white man.

ghostposts · 10-05-2005, 07:52 PM

Well, I done been there, and I gots to say, I don't appreciate what a small group of individuals did to me because I was an american, and (Oh, the horrors,) the child of a military man. Sad. To throw rocks at a six year old. The actions of a few can color your perspective, if you let them. I haven't.

I don't remember the entire French nation throwing rocks at me, or chasing me out of businesses, ect. and calling me "Yank" like it was a dirty word. I was six to almost eight, and it happened in France and in England, but that was years and miles ago.

Seems the political climate can become so tense that people everywhere have a tendency to take their anger and frustrations out on individuals when they can't hurt the government that distresses them. I spent a year and a half in that climate, thank you, and it wasn't any fun, but there were a handful of decent people who didn't act that way.

E_E and Al are smarter than that. They are angry, and express it honestly. You know where they stand, but they wouldn't throw rocks at a kid.

I don't appreciate some of the things that are said about "Yanks" on other sites I go to. The level of paranoia I see on some of the U.K. threads conserning the actions of the U.S. government is astounding. Politically, I'm not crazy about most of the governments running this globe, but I don't hate the French. I just don't appreciate their political actions of the recent past.
That's okay, because lots of U.S. citizens do.

They are entitled to their opinion.

As far as the harsh words said on this thread, they are about par with some I've read on other sites, slamming the U.S. Cruise the bbc threads long enough, and you'll get the drift. Apparently we are barbarians bent on nuking the world.

Thing is, They sound to me like the lunatic fringe. Yet they populate forums that are heavily trafficked, and are not called down by the admins. I don't want to be like them. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Disfunction · 10-05-2005, 08:08 PM

I'm not happy with any nationalism, patriotism, etc. It's all well and good to love your country, but once you get into the whole concepts of superiority, supremacy, etc. it becomes problematic. We're all living on one planet. We're sharing it, and when one person fucks up, we all feel it in the end.

I couldn't stand it when I lived in the states and I would be consistently ridiculed first for being Canadian, and then because it got to me. It's trivial. It's really trivial to focus on a group. If I'm ever going to hate someone, it's going to take a lot. It's not possible for me to even hate a group. I don't have the capacity I once did.

I'm not looking up to getting into a political debate nor a sociological one. I'm giving the French ye olde carte blanche because I personally have never been there. There are a lot of Canadians that feel the same as those French people you cited. A great many. We here like to call them idiots.

I'm not even trying to preach here, but what I am getting at is that actions speak louder than words, and saying nothing at all where as they say everything there is to be said is a sign of superiority... and right now people are reciting very, very old lines that I've heard enough times that if I hear them say it one more fucking time I'm going to bash him over the head with a chair until chair and head become inextricably intertwined.

AlKilyu · 10-05-2005, 09:01 PM

Ah...the constant bashing of a country...THAT'S never happened on this board!

ghostposts · 10-05-2005, 09:19 PM

"We here like to call them idiots."

Yup. Read my post closer. I don't like all the bashing going on and on and on, in many of the sites I go to. It gets old. I don't feel the level of anger you seem to, but it bothers me.

I know there are a lot of Canadians that feel the same way those french people felt.

I mean, no duh! You're preaching to the choir on that one.

I just wanted to point out that this kind of slamming isn't confined to one country. It's universal, and spans decades. I got nailed back in the '60's, and when I go to other boards, I'm still taking heat. There are several I don't even bother posting to anymore.

We do it, they do it, too.

If someone points out how common and universal this kind of slamming is, then maybe we can think it over and decide that we don't want to be like this.

As far as disliking someone, they have the right to their opinions. I seriously doubt the people of the French nation will lose any sleep if I happen to be unsupportive of their choices.

I'm just glad that the distinction was made between politics and the average citizen. We need to make that distinction.

AlKilyu · 10-06-2005, 12:24 AM

Well said ghosty!

Fallen Angel · 10-06-2005, 01:37 AM

Hi there,
Well it's my first post here (no i didn't introduce myself in the proper place ^^')
I know i'm really far from speaking (actually writing) english as you guys (I'm French *don't hit please* Oo ) but i hope you'll be able to understand my message though.
First of all it seems really obvious that this 'news' is fucking bullshit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

which makes me doubt it would have held the dog through the water without ripping the lip loose

I totally agree with him.
And on top of it just search for 'shark hook' with google or whatever, you'll find something like that : http://www.blueoceantackle.com/shark_lures.htm
i don't think the hook showed in this picture would be able to hold a shark big enough to swallow a whole dog...

Now to answer to edible_eye (

Quote:

two-faced, backstabbing, cowardly bastards
your country has pissed on america and the supposed "friendship" we shared for the last time, in my eyes.

)

To my mind when a friend is doing a mistake it's your 'duty' (i don't find the right word) to do all that you can to stop him. Or at least no helping him to do so.
And YOUR war was a fucking mistake. ( i'm not speacking in the name of France, it's only my opinion)
Your country ( government) lied to wage it's war.
As we, and many other country, thought there weren't any weapon of massive destruction in Irak.
You betrayed the UNO council, you betrayed the world. (you = your government but you choose it)
Just wake up please...your government is killing ( murdering) your country's boys (not to speack about irkian civilian) for OIL. And that's all.

yeah 'weak up' is exactly what you should do.
Do you want me post photos of legless childrens ?? ( yep i remind you that your democatic-fair-honourfull- country is still using ANTIPERSONNELMINES ( here are the members of the treaty : http://www.icbl.org/treaty/members ) well i don't see your country Oo any fucking explanation?

Or shall we speak about the Kyoto protocol?
Even if this news was true ( what i really don't think ) why the hell don't you care about your own country which is killing the world for $$$$$?

Sorry but your post really upset me...

I'm not against USA and neither do i 'distaste' it's people, but friends should call for back up only for fair things that's all

btw i would be really pleased if someone here could tell me all my english mistakes through a pm ^^'

*waiting for peace on earth*...*sigh*

AlKilyu · 10-06-2005, 08:10 AM

Very typical.

"Hey don't bash France! How dare you!? Now let's get back to all the things wrong with America..."

Might as well delete this or throw it in Politics.

edible_eye · 10-06-2005, 08:14 AM

fallen angel -

"friendship" and the actions of a "friend" can be viewed as you put it, sure - however i tend to feel that even if one has done all that one can to change or distract one's "friend" by what one believes to be a poor choice, that same person would cover a "friend's" back when push came to shove. and let's face facts - there are no "friends" when it comes to global politics, there are common interests. and that is perhaps where the point of your post lies.

the common interest here is oil. i would imagine that's something we could agree upon. you say the united states went to iraq in order to acquire oil although we have not benefitted from the iraq invasion. shall we redirect our attention to a leaked report last year condemning illegal kickbacks from iraq, namely saddam? something about your own country, in fact. something implicating your oh-so-innocent-and-righteous country for doing exactly what you accuse america of trying to achieve. from the timesonline -

Quote:

Originally Posted by timesonline

"The report says oil was given to key countries: “The regime gave priority to Russia, China and France. This was because they were permanent members of, and hence had the ability to influence decisions made by, the UN Security Council. The regime . . . allocated ‘private oil’ to individuals or political parties that sympathised in some way with the regime.” "

surprisingly, we find your country's name right up there in the top 3. oh, and just as a reminder - your country was 1 of 3 who voted against the war. could it be your illustrious leader was bought off? could be, sure. but take heart - he wasn't the only weak man of governmental power. putin was right there next to him, as was schroeder from germany, who, interestingly enough, wasn't listed above. perhaps germany just knew enough not to vote for the affirmative when it came to invading another country, even if it was justified at the time. they've had a pretty bad history concerning such action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallen_angel

And YOUR war was a fucking mistake. ( i'm not speacking in the name of France, it's only my opinion)
Your country ( government) lied to wage it's war.
As we, and many other country, thought there weren't any weapon of massive destruction in Irak.
You betrayed the UNO council, you betrayed the world. (you = your government but you choose it)

aw, hindsight's 20-20, isn't it? you're arguing what happened then with knowledge of the now. at the time, ALL of the u.n. believed that iraq and saddam had some capacity of illegal weapons and was not cooperating with international inspectors. this has all been covered over the past, few years here but a quick recap from fco.gov.uk is as follows -

Quote:

Originally Posted by fco.gov.uk

"Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

Weapons of mass destruction (WMD) were central to Saddam Hussein's dictatorship from the 1980s. In 1988, the regime used chemical weapons to kill thousands of Iraqi civilians. In the 1990s, UN weapons inspectors uncovered evidence of Iraq's ballistic missile, chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programmes. But Iraq prevented them from finding out the extent of these programmes, and operated a complex deception and concealment programme. After the UN inspectors were effectively forced to leave Iraq in 1998, the 'Butler report' of 29 January 1999 made clear that thousands of tonnes of chemical and biological weapons were still unaccounted for. And we continued to receive information about Iraq's efforts to accelerate these illegal programmes.

In November 2002, the UN Security Council unanimously adopted resolution (UNSCR) 1441, where all members of the Security Council stated their belief that Iraq had not complied with Council resolutions, including on disarmament, and had proliferated WMD and long-range missiles that posed a threat to international peace and security.

Following the UN weapons inspectors' return to Iraq on 27 November 2002, their reports to the Security Council made clear that Iraq's co-operation had been neither full nor immediate. The Iraqi declaration of 7 December 2002 was incomplete, just as all its previous 'full and final' declarations had been.

The document released by the inspectors on 7 March 2003, the so-called 'Clusters Document' of outstanding disarmament issues, catalogued Iraqi evasion and deceit, of feigning co-operation while in reality pursuing a cynical policy of concealment (www.unmovic.org). The document detailed at least 29 instances of Iraqi failure to provide credible evidence, and at least 17 occasions when inspectors uncovered evidence that contradicted the official Iraqi account."

that's rather lengthy. feel free to read it, but the bottom line was - the u.n. (that's all countries across the globe, mind you) continued to pass resolutions. the u.n. believed there were weapons and/or weapon capabilities in iraq under saddam. the u.n sucks as a collective body and is capable of enforcing absolutely nothing. and when the u.n. decided to do what it does best, which was absolutely nothing, the u.s alongside other countries frustrated with the u.n.'s incapability to act decided to step up to the plate. i don't expect you to understand that in its entirety, fallen_angel. you were raised in a country that believes it's easier to drop drawers and expose your naked rear to an enemy, rather than fight. no fault lies with you, to be sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallen_angel

Just wake up please...your government is killing ( murdering) your country's boys (not to speack about irkian civilian) for OIL. And that's all.

yeah 'weak up' is exactly what you should do.
Do you want me post photos of legless childrens ?? ( yep i remind you that your democatic-fair-honourfull- country is still using ANTIPERSONNELMINES ( here are the members of the treaty : http://www.icbl.org/treaty/members ) well i don't see your country Oo any fucking explanation?

actually, you need to wake up. and i think it's funny that you spelled it 'weak up', whether on purpose or by accident. that pretty much describes your country to a 'T' and it's policy concerning action when it's needed.

photos of legless children... go ahead and post 'em. i've seen them. too bad saddam didn't live up to his end of the bargain. maybe they'd still have their legs, but a man who would gas whole cities of men, women and children doesn't have that on his conscience, i would imagine. every american soldier over there does, i would imagine again.

my opinion, fallen_angel, is that you're an anti-bush fanatic, another oh-so-fashionable stereotype of what has become popular in this world. show me proof that the united states is using land mines. that's nothing more than bull shit, until proven conclusively. what would we have to gain? we restrain ourselves when it comes to bombing areas, so as to cut the number of casualties but we set mines? makes no sense. there have been contentions both pro and con in terms of mine use. the truth lies somewhere in the middle - inconclusive for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallen_angel

Even if this news was true ( what i really don't think ) why the hell don't you care about your own country which is killing the world for $$$$$?

i find this quote especially funny when your country was turning a blind eye to death and the potential for more in iraq and abroad BECAUSE of the same money you have no proof to back up when it comes to america. spout your rhetoric. your words are empty.

now, i'll say again - i WISH we (america) had the wherewithal to pull every last man and woman out of that shitstain country as soon as we declared the search for weapons over. i care nothing for that cesspool of a country. let them all kill themselves. they mean nothing to me.

that money would be better spent here, inside our own borders. the iraqi constitution is a joke. their government is a joke. fuck them. i don't want anymore americans dying for their cause, whatever their cause is. let the iraqis fight for what they want. if they don't want another dictator taking control of their lives, they'll figure out how to do it.

Empty_Purple_Stars · 10-06-2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel

Hi there,
Well it's my first post here (no i didn't introduce myself in the proper place ^^')

I know i'm really far from speaking (actually writing) english as you guys (I'm French *don't hit please* Oo ) but i hope you'll be able to understand my message though.

btw i would be really pleased if someone here could tell me all my english mistakes through a pm ^^'

*waiting for peace on earth*...*sigh*

Private Messages aren't working yet, long story.

But for a non-English speaker, you exspressed yourself very well. The mistakes were minor and not worth pointing out really. Except, 'Weak Up' should have been 'Wake Up' but I think E_E mentioned that.

I wish I could speak French as fluently as you do English.

Je parle seulement français.. ( If thats right, I'm terribly rusty )

We are ALL entitled to our opinions, and I understand that Passions and Tempers flare brightly on this subject..

There are strong cases both FOR and AGAINST this war.

Welcome and go Introduce Yourself, we can always use another passionate member of this forum to keep things interesting..

Me? I don't read The Sun unless I am out of Toliet Paper..

edible_eye · 10-06-2005, 08:26 AM

oh, and before i forget my manners, fallen_angel - i agree with e_p_s concerning your english and spelling. bravo. for someone writing in a non-native language, you express yourself quite well.

AlKilyu · 10-06-2005, 09:10 AM

I say the French suck, I get chastised for it, then you turn around and accuse my country of blatently murdering children. No.

Yes your English is fantastic, your ideals of what is offensive and what isn't, very twisted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edible_eye

aw, hindsight's 20-20, isn't it? you're arguing what happened then with knowledge of the now.

That's just about the best thing I've read in awhile.

edible_eye · 10-06-2005, 09:17 AM

thanx, man.

AlKilyu · 10-06-2005, 09:23 AM

No prob. Did you check your yahoo email yet?

edible_eye · 10-06-2005, 10:42 AM

no. i'll go do that right now.

spookypurple · 10-06-2005, 10:45 AM

The photo in the article isn't genuine, if that makes any difference. The Sun are very good at doing "This is what it might just possibly look like" sort of photos. You know, like pasting a celeb's face onto a wrinkly body to show exactly what they'll look in 40 years time. That sort of thing. I know this isn't the point of the news story, but it's just in case anyone got overly upset at the photo. I know I did, real or not. The point was to stir up exactly the sort of response it has done. "Debate is a wonderful thing. As long as we don't have to discuss it."

AlKilyu · 10-06-2005, 10:47 AM

Thanks spookypurple. Again, I would love it if this were tabloid junk and it had no truth to it whatsoever.

Fallen Angel · 10-06-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edible_eye

although we have not benefitted from the iraq invasion

OMG! lol are you kidding?
Could you please tell me who is going to build back the country...?
And any idea of how much this reconstruction market worth?

Quote:

IRAQ: Battle for $500-Million Wheat Market Heats Up

...

and by the way :

Quote:

The former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix has declared that the war in Iraq was illegal, dealing another devastating blow to Tony Blair.

Mr Blix, speaking to The Independent, said the Attorney General's legal advice to the Government on the eve of war, giving cover for military action by the US and Britain, had no lawful justification. He said it would have required a second United Nations resolution explicitly authorizing the use of force for the invasion of Iraq last March to have been legal.

(http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm )

I don't know if this war was a 'good' or a 'bad' thing...
But to my mind waging a war without ONU authorization is like saying 'fuck' to the world.
In french we don't say 'to break the law' but 'to r-a-p-e the law' and it's exactly what your government did (and Blair's one, etc...).
You know there are a lot of things in my country history which i'm not proud of...but this time i feel really glad that France didn't get involved in this shit.
Well now it's true, i should have posted in the 'politics' board ^^'
But i just felt offended by being called 'backstabbing, cowardly bastards' and so on just because my country didn't blindly follow yours like UK did.
I think you should watch 'Farenheit 9/11' (M. Moore)...but if you already did what's your opinion about it? Didn't it change your mind about Bush?

p.s. yes 'weak up' was a mistake ^^' (=wake up) i typed to quickly

and thanks all i really enjoy writing in english, so feel free to give me any advice i'm always pleased to learn =)

Fallen Angel · 10-06-2005, 04:30 PM

sorry the 'edit' button leave to quickly ^^'

the whole quote is :

Quote:

SYDNEY, Australia -- Australia and the United States, military allies in the invasion of Iraq but fierce rivals in the wheat export trade, are sharpening their scythes for a battle over the big Iraqi grain market.

$500 million just for wheat...
the whole reconstruction market should worth over $5 BILLIONS...(here but it's in french)

here is the google translation :

The Pentagon announced Wednesday the granting of seven contracts, of a total value of some 130 million dollars, at British and American companies within the framework of the rebuilding of Iraq. The amount of each contract oscillates between 8,4 million dollars and 43,4 million dollars. It is the company Iraq Power Alliance, association between American Parsons Energy and Chemicals Group and the Parsons-Brinkerhoff British, who obtained the juiciest contract, is 43,4 million dollars for the sector of electricity. In the next days ten other contracts should be allotted, relating in particular to the sectors of public works and water or teaching and health.
The whole representing a total envelope of 5 billion dollars.

ghostposts · 10-06-2005, 05:41 PM

Um, sorry, but the wheat contract is a drop in the bucket.

http://www.costofwar.com/
http://www.americanprogress.org/site...J8OVF&b=171440

just a few sources.

Let's see...5 billion > 144 billion?

Not to mention the costs that aren't added up on a calculator. As far as wheat contracts are concerned, weren't we supposed to be getting all this oil money from somewhere? Wonder what happened.

edible_eye · 10-06-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen Angel

I think you should watch 'Farenheit 9/11' (M. Moore)...but if you already did what's your opinion about it? Didn't it change your mind about Bush?

'nuff said. i understand where you're coming from now.

all i can say is - if you're paying attention to the likes of michael moore and taking him seriously... good luck.